The compatibility of atheism and wicca

[Evan]

I came to atheism as the result of a long process of reflection, logical arguments and questions I posed to myself. I believe in no afterlife and no gods. I believe that, while no deities exist, purposed paranormal activity can and that most things, if not misunderstandings of existing knowledge, are by no means above the natural world and are part of it in some way, such as ghosts being some interaction between the human brain and "imprints" left on the earth. I don't doubt the possibility of reincarnation or karma, although I think karma is more of the results one's actions have on others and isn't a personal reciprocation based on your actions.

Wicca, however, has interested me, mainly because of its interwoven layers of symbolism, themes of cosmic and personal balance, and the idea that you affect what happens around you, not some external deity. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, please. I have to brush up on my learnings.

Anyway, the fluffy bunnies at high school haven't been much help and I'm coming to this community, which looks rather well-educated, to ask: Can I use the Goddesses and Gods of X pantheon (or a mismash, but I woouldn't prefer that), to portray a universal balance and certain concepts (Mars, for example, being aggressiveness, determination and a strong will) instead of believing them to actually exist? Would using them and other practices as symbols to help me channel myself be appropriate, or do I have to actually believe what in a transcedental realm of spirits, fabulous beasts and the like?

If I can use them as concepts to help focus myself, how would I chose a pantheon? What should I look up on first? Thank you in advance for your replies.

[Labrys]

Since Wicca IS a theistic form of religion, I would say atheism is a bar to being a member.  Using whatever pantheon as mere symbols might indeed be effective for you in some ways, insofar as the practice of magic goes; but the point of Wicca is not simply doing magic.  It is a religion and offers deeper spiritual fruits to those who earnestly seek.  Many practicianers, if you sought them out for training, might feel rather insulted that you wanted to view their deities as some sort of psychological component alone. There are doubtless Wiccans here who can speak to that more competently than I can.

I am not Wiccan, but I am pagan; although a skeptic I do find myself a believer in deities.  Perhaps what you need to do is admit that you are simply interested in magic, in balance and the other aspects of Wicca.  And those are available in other subsets of paganism with less emphasis on belief in gods. If nature is important to you, perhaps a sort of pantheism (yes, still speaking of a God---but in some ways much more diffuse and less personal) would appeal to you.  Just as Buddhism has very non-theistic complements in that sphere of religion; paganism has more pages than Wicca.  Some sorts of Ceremonial Magic, for instance, verge upon non-belief.

[Lark]

Speaking as a Wiccan I would have great difficulty believing that one can see the Gods simply as symbols of human traits.  Wicca is at its heart a specific religion with specific beliefs and practices.  Some of those core beliefs is that the Divine is manifest as God and Goddess and that the Gods are not only transcendant but also immanent in this world and intimately involved in our lives.  That would pretty much preclude approaching Wicca from an atheistic viewpoint.

It is also generally considered disrespectful and unwise to randomly pick Deities from various pantheons and cultures and to use them basically as props for one's practice.  They have been known to deliver a good cosmic thwap to someone who treated them as other than what they are.

As Labrys stated, there are other forms of Pagan practice which one can chose which do not specifically require a belief in actual Gods or Goddesses.  Ceremonial magic is one such path.  Non-theistic witchcraft is another path that might be worth exploring.

But I think that your beliefs and Wicca are rather incompatible at the moment.

-Lark-

[Evan]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm not sure what you mean by admitting that I'm interested in the themes of Wicca and the like, because I am. I'm assuming there was something in my post that caused a misconception. Regardless, I thank you for your advice.

Would you happen to know of any specific Pagan practice that you could recommend?

[Labrys]

Thanks for the suggestions.



Would you happen to know of any specific Pagan practice that you could recommend?

I was under the impression that you WERE given suggestions....by both myself and Lark.  Did you mean that you wanted others, that those did not "work" for you?

[Brijrian]

Evan, Lark and Labrys specifically mentioned Ceremonial Magic and non-theistic witchcraft as places to start.

To be honest, the most meaningful path will probably be one that you find while doing research. And reading a lot. That's how it happened for me.

You could try using Google to figure out what different types of witchcraft and ceremonial magic are out there as a start.

Good luck! I know it will probably be a long journey, but it is worth it in the end. I hope that you find something that really resonates for you.

*Brijrian

[Zenon]

I don't think wicca would be a good choice for an atheist.

you might want to look into the philosophy of chaos magic.  that might offer something much more compatible with your atheism.  chaos magic is a powerful, difficult and delicate discipline to practice.


I think that la veyan satanism is inherently atheist, so you might want to read up on that too.

thelema might also be compatible to atheism... to an extent.

[Zenon]

please note too that neither chaos magic, satanism, nor thelema are pagan practices.

I don't think there is room for atheism in paganism, I'm sorry.

[Labrys]

please note too that neither chaos magic, satanism, nor thelema are pagan practices.

I beg to differ.  Since one definition of pagan is simply "not Christian, Judaic, or Islamic"...then many of those things are indeed viewable as pagan. 

I do contend, however, that Satanism is an offshoot of Christianity, since it is 'their' satan.

[Labrys]

I think that la veyan satanism is inherently atheist, so you might want to read up on that too.

I disagree.  Denial of worship (of the Christian God) such as La Vey's Satanism would demand is not disbelief IN such a deity.  Simply choosing to worship another does not make one an atheist.

If it did, Christians could viably proclaim any pagan to be therefore atheist for not worshiping their god.

[Zenon]

please note too that neither chaos magic, satanism, nor thelema are pagan practices.

I beg to differ.  Since one definition of pagan is simply "not Christian, Judaic, or Islamic"...then many of those things are indeed viewable as pagan. 

I do contend, however, that Satanism is an offshoot of Christianity, since it is 'their' satan.

Thelema can be pagan to some extent, but I disagree that Chaos Magic is Pagan.

Chaos Magic involves paradigm shifting, which demands only momentary belief in deities.  Chaos Magic involves no worship.  It is pure magic.

I've read satanists who claim that Satan is not an actual deity, but an ideal.  Maybe they're not La Veyan

Thanks for your opinions, merry meet!

[Labrys]

You seem to be clinging to a definition of "pagan" as necessarily involving deities.  As I stated...at least one well accepted definition is simply that "pagan" means a lack of belief/acceptance of the Abrahamic deity.

So, in that definition, chaos magic could indeed be considered pagan.  I have known chaos magicians who certainly considered themselves pagan.

I have known at least two atheists who align with pagan ideals of various sorts. For one, this always ended badly for various reasons; but the other seemed to fit in rather seemlessly.  For an atheist to fit in with a pagan group comfortably, it is more about how that person approaches the question of belief.  It is a bit like the semi-humorous bumper-sticker about the "militant" agnostic, lol: "I don't know and you don't either!" 

If an atheist aspiring to some of the pagan ideas has to constantly challenge the belief system of others, there will certainly be issues: the "The isn't ANY deity, get over it or explain to me where I am wrong tack." will be disruptive in the extreme.  But if that person instead is mature enough to allow others their own chosen belief while espousing none of their own, things are not particularly troublesome.

[Zenon]

You don't really have to join any group to practice magic, that you can do by yourself.  I suppose atheist ideas might clash with those who are theistic and polytheistic, but then people clash all the time about anything, like for example haircuts or taste in music.   An atheist might face a problem if he involves himself in a group that demands belief in a deity - but then why would an atheist seek such a group?  There's plenty of literature out there for solitary study, and I wonder if there's plenty of atheists out there who agree with Evan's line of thought, maybe some internet networking might help.

If your definition of pagan is everything that is "not Christian, Judaic, or Islamic"...  then so be it.  My problem with THAT definition of Pagan, is that it seems meant to be pejorative, like a "black or white" thing  - you're either Christian, Jew, Muslim... or "Pagan". It's all inclusive of everything non-abrahamic, it sounds like another word to separate "normal, organized religions" from "weird uncivilized cults", and I don't like it when it's used that way.   If one wants to consider oneself pagan for any reason, like an "atheist pagan" that's fine.  But I wouldn't group everything under that term.  But that is just my perception, everyone has theirs.  Silly words in the end...

[Labrys]

It isn't actually "my" personal definition.  It is, naturally, from a dictionary.  And as far as pejorative ones go, it is far better than the one that goes like this:

Pagan: having no religion

For alas, that is the working definition I still see in news articles (most recently, to my shock about the election of Obama---where the imbecilic reporter mused about people of no faith...the pagans, voting strongly for Obama).

I don't think considering non-Abrahamic religions pagan HAS to be pejorative, to be honest.  It is simply a classification...like all shades of blue not being shades of red.  The  trouble with your definition is that it lends itself to a particular narrowness that is similar to certain Christian sects which call other Christians NOT Christian.  For, somewhat naturally....most folks would agree a belief in and reverence for Christ makes one a Christian.  But there are many groups who would say "No, not so...Mormons are not Christian. And those damned Catholics are not real Christians"...and then they go off on a dozen peculiar arguments on why only certain orthodoxies make one Christian.

I dislike the idea that in the very heterodox world of paganism, that as more people gravitate to that side of the line, pagans themselves will start narrowing the boundaries of inclusion.  It could be like what happened in Christianity when it achieved wide-spread acceptance in the early centuries---and promptly nearly tore itself to bits with argument over who was doing it "right" and who would be "cast into outer darkness."

I prefer "erroring" as you doubtless will see it, on the side of inclusion instead of exclusion.  Paganism is a spectrum.  I consider nothing pejorative in including anything that does not fall into the strict Abrahamic brand of monotheism in that market basket of belief.  I think refusing to be punished by a word is the first step to taking it back and restoring meaning as it applies to one.

[Zenon]

I think refusing to be punished by a word is the first step to taking it back and restoring meaning as it applies to one.

I agree with this.  Thanks for your thoughts.

For alas, that is the working definition I still see in news articles (most recently, to my shock about the election of Obama---where the imbecilic reporter mused about people of no faith...the pagans, voting strongly for Obama).