Discussion Topic: Is Pagansim a religion or not?

[Gryphon]

I know this can be a hot and touchy subject to some so I am saying ahead of time to keep all remarks civil and refrain from unpleasant behavior to other posters, please.
 
That said, moving on to the topic.
 
Many folks move to a Pagan spirituality because of being force fed one of the major religions by their parents. They are looking for something that will connect them to the Divine on a more personal level and often find a comfort level in the way many of the Pagan paths allow them to do so.
 
Others, like me, were brought up to love their childhood religions, but didn't find all of their spiritual needs met through the religious teaching of their parents' path.
 
I came to Paganism quite by accident (or by the hand of God/dess guiding me, you pick) when a book called Drawing Down the Moon happened to be laying out on a coffee table at a party I was invited to through a friend of a friend. I had been trying on many different spiritual Paths at this point in my life only to discard each one as still lacking what I was searching for. Once I had read the book, I had a name to something I had always believed but didn't know that others also held similar beliefs. It was like finally coming home. I have heard this from many others since of their first experience in coming to a Pagan path. Soon after reading this book, I was invited to circle with a group of others and so my training as a "witch" began in earnest.
 
Since that group, I have been mostly solitary, I've had a few invitations to join other covens, but none suited my needs or my particular life situations at the time of the invitations. So I remain solitary, except for my small family of 3.  
 
I have always approached my spirituality with a certain sense of awe at the Divines' essence. Moving from my childhood path to this one was rather seamless and except for a few years of deep searching early on when I was trying to move from a monotheistic outlook to a polytheistic one quite easily translated from one to the other. I kept the portions of my old ways and incorporated the things that continued to work for me into the new ways and left the rest behind.
 
For me being Pagan has always been my religious choice and path.
 
I know that there are others that balk and bristle at the very word religion because it brings up images of doctrine and dogma. The "r" word causes others to assume that anything connected to it means the same thing as the very path they are trowing down in disgust. I can understand where some don't want their new found (or old found if they've been Pagan for a number of years) spiritual path to be in any way related to the one that so ill suited them before they found Paganism, even if only by a single word.
 
This is the definition of the word religion from dictionary.com:
re‧li‧gion  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key [ri-lij-uhn] –noun
1.   a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.   a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.   the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.   the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.   the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.   something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
 
It seems to me that Paganism in many of its forms does fall into the category of a religion. I do know that their are also others out there who do not chose to believe in a Divine Presence of any sort, but still practice rituals such as Samhain and Yule.
 
I also know there are others that consider themselves witch and do not practice anything but witchcraft, but is that not also covered by the definition above if they follow a set of practices and beliefs from one spell casting to the next? Why do some Pagans react so strongly to Paganism being called a religion? What do you chose to call your spiritual path and why?

[Ara]

Drawing Down the Moon was in the first series of five books that I read on different religions other than the church that I grew up in.  I don't know what attacted me to it, or why I picked it off the shelf--I, like many other people, thought that anything related to the word "Pagan" was bad...  I had picked up many Christian books, one on Buddhism and Judasim...But it never seemed right...

I guess I've always known what I believed, there's never been any thought, and I always called it a religion, though until recently, when I started researching it was nameless.  It was just what I believed.  My own personal religion of Ara.  

I guess that's why I still call Paganism my religion.  Because it always has been, even when it was nameless.  

Always
~Ara[/i]

[Anonymous]

As the definition says, the word religion refers to a specific set of beliefs. Paganism hasn't got one set of beliefs that all Pagans believe in. If this was just with a few beliefs, the differences would be minor enough to call each of the beliefs a denomination. When there differences are as large as the deity worshipped, the beliefs about the afterlife, and the nature of life, you can't classify them as the same religion.

Due to the wide variety of beliefs of Pagan religions, Paganism is a category of religions, not a religion in itself.

[Sewa Yoleme]

I'm thisclose to no longer calling myself a Pagan. I no longer call myself a Christian, not because I reject Christ's teachings, but because so many of his followers drive me nuts. Well, I'm just about there with other Pagans. So many are dysfunctional, toxic, or just plain strange, that I'm not sure I want to be tarred with that same brush. Perhaps I can still be a (little-p) pagan.

While I agree with Leotaur64 that Paganism is more a category than a religion in itself, I think the same can be said about Christianity. Christian fundamentalism has little or nothing in common with Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and they're both worlds away from a liberal Protestant denonimation or, say, Seventh-Day Adventists.

I practice shamanism. For me, that's a handy articulation of my spiritual path because it can be rich in religio-cultural ritual, or it can be a set of tools that even athiests can use. I see most everyone, whether they consider themselves religious, spiritual, or steadfastly humanist, to have major commonalities once you get beyond the labels, beneath the statements of faith (or lack thereof), and down to their actual experience of Otherness.

.:. Sewa Yoleme

[NachtSorcier]

In my mind, "religion" refers to any organized (however loosely) set of beliefs that deal with the paranormal (the word I use in place of supernatural; nothing is above nature to me) and a reunion with the Higher Power.  That's what religion means, relinking.  When you adhere to a religion, you are seeking to reunite with He/She/It/Those whom you believe created the universe.  Christianity is a religion because its followers seek salvation through Christ and follow his teachings in the Bible.  Buddhism is a religion because its followers wish to find Nirvana through the teachings of Buddha.  LaVeyan Satanism is a religion of sorts because they adhere to the philosophy of the Satanic Bible and seek to be the best people they can be through those laws and making an effort to banish those traits they consider to be sins from their persona.

Now, because Paganism refers to so many different denominations, Paganism itself doesn't seem to be able to fit under the label religion.  If you say that your religion is Paganism, that leaves many questions to be answered: Who do you worship?  How do you feel your life is best lived?  If someone says that they're a Christian, even if you don't know whether they're a Protestant, Catholic, Lutheran, or whatever, you still have an idea of what they mean.  But if someone says that they're a Pagan, that could mean that they're a Wiccan, a Druid, a Thelemite, or even just an eclectic animist, all of which have distinctly different belief systems and forms of worship.  So I suppose my final answer is that Paganism is not exactly a religion on its own, rather a description of several different religions that have a few things in common, namely a connection to nature and a belief in magic.  Of course, if you go by the Christian definition of Pagan, it merely means a religion that is not Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

My religion is Wicca.  I call it a religion because each tradition has a set of central concepts, ritual tools, view of the Creators, and ritual form.  No matter which tradition of Wicca it is, it still will use at least some traditional Wiccan tools (athame, salt, water, incense, and candles at the very least), cast a circle in which to hold rituals, adhere to some form of the Harm None law, hold rituals on the Sabbats, and see the Divine as some form of Goddess and God.

Religion is not a scary word to me.  In spite of what some radical Christians or anyone else might think, they do not hold ownership over the word religion.

[Anonymous]

Well put.

I'd just like to add, I'm one of those people who uses the term Pagan to describe myself religiously; I don't actually follow any set religion. If anything, I follow a religion of one. However, my belief do fit into the category of Paganism, which is why I use the term. So, I do recognise that there are other people who will use only the term Pagan to describe their religious beliefs.

[Sebbi]

I have 2 things to add to this discussion:

1. The whole time here I'll assume we're talking about paganism today, not the historical practice.

2. Is that I don't think it matters what words you put to it. What referring to most things you possibly name, no matter how you name them it still is what it is what it is what it is.

Paganism included. If you decide to call it a religion or a spirituality or what, it doesn't change what it actually is.

3. As a Religious Studies student and having just been doing this exact topic I don't think you can call Paganism a religion or even a group of religions.

My reasoning is this:

Religion is fairly specifically defined, depending on who you ask (and may I point out that you're much better off looking at what the scolars have said rather than the dictionary). Although each definition will differ you will notice that the overall agreement is that religion is not a personal thing, it has to be shared by a large group of people to qualify as a religion and even then it's sketchy (most of the time). Individuals may have what are known as "religious experiences" but this doesn't neccesarily have to be within the framework of religion.

I'll run you through some of the definitions:

Most famous one - Ninian Smart came up with the Phenomenological Definition and came up with 7 key features

Ritual - this is fairly loosely defined by Smart, along with, for example, attending mass, she also includes Yoga, meditation etc - "behaviour that seeks to express an inner reality"
Myths - Narrative that highlights spiritual truths
Doctrine - A systematic code of beliefs and teachings
Ethics - Persuading followers to live by a common set of values
Social Effects - "the way in which the religion directs the customs of the society in which it is based"
Experiential - How it feels to be part of a relgion.
Material - Religion produces buildings, artwork and other cultural artifacts.

Other important scolars on this were Bronislaw Malinowski and Emile Durkheim who pioneered the Anthropological and Sociological definitions of religion respectly.

Both of those are fairly self explanitory from the name if, you want to look deeper into them I'm sure Wikipedia is a good resource.

I think what's important about them is that they emphasis that religion is something that comes out of a group.

Another thing on the sociological definition - when I was studying sociology a couple of years ago we did a bit on religion and it described various specific stages of the development of a religion and it only becomes a religion at a very specific point and before that it may be called a "Cult" or a "Sect" and after that point you also get "denominations" but it's not a religion until it has a certain structure involved.

There's also the Historical Definition (Mircea Eliade) which focuses on religion in relation to events throughout history and where religion comes from.

Anyway.

I don't think modern paganism has made a significant enough impact on society for it to qualify. If had then the pagan subculture would be far more significant in society and far less fragmented. I really really hate to say it but the best bargaining chip paganism has isn't in society but in the world of commerce, and that's highly arguably not even real paganism (I'm thinking if I was publisher wanting to make money, investing in Spellbooks for Teenagers isn't a bad way to go about it).

Does paganism have well established, highly structured organisations similar to the Church? Should it?

I think paganism is by nature, a highly individual practice and perhaps it is best for it not to grow into something huge on a religious scale.

Much Love
Sebbi

[Gryphon]

If we are going to go the scholarly route I give you the most recent findings of CUNY Graduate Center. http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm
 
Scroll down to the second chart in Exhibit 1. It is just before section 2.
 
There several THOUSANDS of self-identifying Pagans, Wiccan and Druids. Who knows how many are so broom closeted that they didn't answer...
 
In fact, I don't have the link any more, but Neo-Paganism in all its incarnations is now the 19th largest spiritual group in the world. I do not think our influence is as negligible as you believe it to be. And we are still growing by leaps and bounds. This same study done in 1995 projected that Neo-Pagans as a entire group (instead of individual Traditions) would have a population on par with Judaism by the year 2010.

[Zenon]

"Paganism" is a generalization.  It can or cannot be a religion because there is so much variety between "pagans" - wiccans, witches, asatru, druids, et cetera ad infinitum.

There are even magicians, alchemists, or other practitioners of magic that are labeled "pagans" but are not really - in those cases, ceremonial magic or alchemy would not be religions as traditionally defined.

A "pagan" should not be exclusively a term to describe someone who practices magic - there are people who are part of traditional greek religion for example, who have nothing to do with witchcraft or magic - they worship.

Paganism is more of a category than a religion itself.

[Sebbi]

This same study done in 1995 projected that Neo-Pagans as a entire group (instead of individual Traditions) would have a population on par with Judaism by the year 2010.

Focusing on what you've put in brackets. That's a large part of my point - it's far too fragmented to qualify.

And do you know if what cross section that population is - global or American? Because that would be a huge difference.

I also don't think Neo-Paganism has had the time to develop into a religion. Imagine if paganism dies out right now and in 200 or 300 years time a historian looks back on it, I doubt they would describe it as a religion. An art movement maybe, a sect maybe, a movement maybe, a philosophy maybe, a publishing pheonomina perhaps, but not a religion.

Actually having mentioned Judaism, this a good comparison to make between the two.

I know lots of people who consider themselves Jewish, have had their Bar(t) Mitzwas (sp?), go to Synagoge (sp? - seriously excuse my dyslexia here), know basic Hewbrew (1 to 10, hi, how are you, I'm fine etc.), eat unleavened bread at passover and things but are flaky about the existance of God.

I know that you may say that arguably these aren't "real Jews" but bare with me. I'm illustrating a point that religion doesn't just exist in theology.

Judaism has a really rich history, and mythology.

In Paganism you get the opposite of my Jewish-but-not-sure-of-the-belief-side-of-things friends. You get a lot of people who believe but there isn't a strong pagan community that they grew up in to back it up in.

This is the exception not the rule may I add, I know of people who were born and raised pagan and exist in strong pagan communities, but I this isn't the norm. If it was then I could have gone to the local pagan equivilant to the church or synagoge or temple when I first discovered it, but I couldn't, and still can't.

On covens - I wouldn't consider a coven a religious establishment in the same way as a church. It's more of a group of people with a shared interest than a religious establishment, in my eyes at least.

Paganism hasn't had a strong effect on the broader society, you haven't heard of any "pagan revolution of 1974 (random date)" where the pagans rose up and demanded something or other and it was culturally and/or socially significant for anyone who's not pagan.

I'll go and read your article.

Much Love
Sebbi

[Anonymous]

..definition of the word religion from dictionary.com:

     .. 6. something one believes in and follows               devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make           a religion of fighting prejudice.


Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran… are they not forms of Christianity?

Same as

Wiccan, Witches, Druids, Shaman, (whether groups or individuals)… forms of Paganism?

The all, (except for the occasional hypocrite), have beliefs they follow.

     “…overall agreement is that religion is not a personal thing, it      has to be shared by a large group of people to qualify as a religion and even then it's sketchy (most of the time).

I believe religion is a very personal matter for each individual, for this is his/her beliefs, whether it is Christianity or Paganism.

Any religion had to start with ONE individual.

[Anonymous]

A bit of a rambling discussion.

Gryphon posted the definition of religion as follows:

This is the definition of the word religion from dictionary.com:
re‧li‧gion  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key [ri-lij-uhn] –noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Personally I'm not sure it matters whether Pagans view their spiritual paths as 'religion' as such.  That which we call a rose...

If we try the above definition onto Paganism for size, it's a pretty good fit.  (This is a sweeping gerneralisation I know as Pagans' paths vary infinitely!) However: beliefs concerning the Universe, devotional and ritual observances, a moral code- these strike a chord with me!

I would like to question no. 2:
'a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects'  
How many people have to be in consensus about these beliefs and practices? 1,000,000 or more? 50?  How about me and my friend?  Oh, and not forgetting that ONE is a number!

Also, do the individuals who follow a religious tradition have to agree on everything?  Is there no room for flexibility?

For me it's all a matter of semantics.  I prefer to think of 'My Spiritual Path', rather than 'My Religion'.  This is partly due to the fact that the former tag is (FOR ME) free from association with rigid doctrine and dogma.  A Path is something that's ever evolving, it twists and turns as I walk it. My Path highly individualised and personal.  It is not prescribed for me in volumes, or tablets of stone.
(Disclaimer:This train of thought is in no way intended to be derrogatory towards any other person's religious, or Spiritual beliefs.   )

I think that it is all subjective.  One Pagan's Religion is another Pagan's Path.  I'm not sure that we can categorically classify 'Paganism' as one thing or the other.

My two penneth worth...

BB Npf

[Gryphon]

Okay, Judaism has been around for nearly 7,000 years. Do you suppose that the first 100 years during Abraham's life and directly after his death were any different for the few clumps of Jews here and there than it is for the few clumps of Wiccans here and there now?
 
I live in a small MidWest town. Frankly the Pagan population is larger than the Jewish population.  
 
Yes, Judaism has a long and varied cultural background, but a Jew from South Africa has very different religious customs than one in Denmark. And some folks can call themselves Jewish because of their cultural heritage, but they do not follow any of the religious activities such as Bar(t) Mitzvah, keeping kosher or observing the Sabbath or High Holy Days or anything else. That comes with being a viable segment of the world's population for the last 7,000 (or so) years.
 
Wicca as a subset of Paganism is only about 70 years old. For so young a (whatever you want to call it) it has had a huge surge in growth in the last 30 years. A vast majority of the US population knows someone (or someone who knows someone) who follows one of the many Earth Honoring Paths. Even if they are not aware of that fact.
 
It is up to the thousands of people now who follow this particular kind of spiritual Path as to how we as a group are to be seen in the future. I do not think that the varied different forms of Neo-Paganism are going away. Far too many people are embracing them for reasons other than shock value or because "it's cool".

[Beith]

I think the question is not so much 'is paganism a religion' as 'do we want it to be?'

I am torn 50/50 on this one.  For me my beliefs fulfill me in the same way as anyone belonging to an 'official' religion.  The fragmented nature of paganism does not really disqualify it for me, as Hinduism is definately a religion and yet there are 600 main forms and who knows how many subdivisions of those!!!  With most faiths it is nigh on impossible to get two people to agree exactly on what they believe or what they practice.

As to whether we want it to be defined as such - on one hand it would give us the same status as other faith groups, allowing us to access rights which may be tricky to demand right now (I work in a school but cannot get special dispensation to take time off for Sabbats, unlike Muslim, Hindu and Sikh members of staff who can take time off for their religious festivals).  

On the other hand, one of the things I like about being Pagan is the lack of a defined belief system... I borrow from just about every tradition and culture on the planet - at least it seems that way   and would hate to lose that freedom.  So I am not sure.

It does help to have a 'label' when you are trying to dispell myths though.  

So I am most undecided & it's not the first time!

[Zenon]

I think it will be impossible for an esoteric tradition such as traditional wicca to become massive, like how some traditional religions have become.

Any system where people undergo initiations into grades will not become a traditional religion per se.  It's built that way so it will never happen.

If people start creating covens and circles en masse, eventually they will get tired of esoteric tradition (either because initiation is not what they seek, or they are too lazy to do the work) and seek or create something else.

Something that would more likely attract those people would be reconstructionist religions, such greek, roman, celtic, native american paths or et cetera that focus on worship and not that much on magick.

But oh, the word "witch" has nothing to do with resconstructionist paganism, and that would put so many people off.

Maybe, with all the self-study literature available, there will be a terribly huge number of solitaries...  Still I think there will be many people who will need the assistance of clergy... something that is kind of out of place in a religion where you are your own priest/ess.

I don't think there's anything definitive on what will happen.  It will be very interesting though!