sorry about another post

[Emerald Victorianna Rose]

I am just wondering, I recently joined this Wiccan study group.  I was told that there are three phases of being a wiccan in a coven (trying to explain it as best I can) but anyways I was told that the three phases of a wiccan woman are maiden, mother, and crone...and that you can NEVER progress to the mother part, unless you have physically given birth.  Now the only reason this bothers me a bit, is because there are those of us, who really desire to be a mother.  Yes I am only 22 years old, but I already had two miscarriges (another misspell) and I fear that day for me may never come.  But at the same time if that does happen, and I never am a mother, but when I am 35 years old, I want the same respect as I should have, for my maturity rate.  At that age, I dont want to be compared to someone who is new in the craft (like I am now) or someone who has less life experience.  Not that those are bad things, a maiden is who I am now, and it is good... but why call someone a maiden, when I am not going to be an actual maiden.  They might as well put me at the kiddy table with all the other kids... because that is how I feel.  I know it may not be considered that important, but it is just a feeling.  I dont want to be treated as a young adult, If I am in my middle aged.  I want to be treated as a middle aged person, because to me it is not a bad thing to age, or get old.  When you age you are getting wiser, you deserve more respect in certain aspects of life.  Just because I never physically had a child, doesnt mean I dont have the same mentality as someone my age who has.  I am already a step-mom and though that is NOT the same thing. I do have a higher degree of responsibilites then somone my age who does not have a child in their lifes at all...sorry so long.  It was my first day at the class,  and this part really bothered me.  Thank you for reading this far.

[Emerald Victorianna Rose]

oops, I am sorry but I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum. I should have posted it in the cauldron.  Sorry about that guys

[Shadow]

This falls into that question I posed sometime back about "What is an elder".

The defining point of being considered a mature member of the community has nothing to do with whether or not you have had a child, that's a lot of crap.  I've known many women whom I wouldn't trust to cross the street by themselves both in and outside of the Craft who have had children.  Having children has imparted absolutely no wisdom or other redeeming qualities on these people.  Just like being able to sire a child doesn't make you a father, in many cases it just makes you not very careful.

I also know quite a few women who have never had children, either due to some biological problem, or by choice, whom I consider to be very wise women and elders in the community.  One of my best friends is fifty and never has fathered a child, nor is he likely to.  Doesn't mean he isn't one of the wisest men I know.

Personally I'd look at the person spouting off this crap and see if maybe she has some issues going on that need some attention.

[Emerald Victorianna Rose]

thank you for that post, it gave me a lot more confidence in Wicca... maybe that study group just isn't right for me, but I think I might give it a few more chances before I jump to conclusions or leave, or decide to stay permanently.

[RedRonin]

Cripes.............

Sounds like some kind of "I didn't bother reading or actually learning Jack about any of this, but I'll make it up as I go and maybe nobody will notice" sort of coven leadership.

You're feeling is correct.  Not having any group to work with would still be an improvement over this bunch of goobers.

[Lark]

Frankly they're just silly.

There are many ways of "mothering" that don't involve giving birth.  We may teach, or we may care for the planet, or we may take in stray animals.  We can create poetry, or gardens, or other forms of beauty.  All of those are ways of "mothering" that are important as well.

I have never had children of my own.  But I've been teaching and counseling and running a coven for nearly 10 years now. I'd say that counts.  And I've been a Crone for longer than that.  

To say that someone cannot advance spiritually because they did not bear a child is to not understand the intent behind the symbolism.  If the group is that shallow then I'd say finding another group would be a good way to go.

The idea of Maiden, Mother, Crone are archetypes and symbols for the way that the Universe works.  They are not and were never meant to limit us physically or spiritually by tying us to a biological basis.

-Lark-

[Sebbi]

Well put Lark.

I was thinking something similar.
And I second what Red said - you'd be better off leaving.

[Anonymous]

Next they'll be saying that they couldn't originally form a coven because they needed someone fire to complete their set of elements. What ever happened to the degree system?

[RedRonin]

What ever happened to the degree system?

You need several hundred of them to get the fire started, don't you??

[Shadow]

You need several hundred of them to get the fire started, don't you??

About four hundred and fifty-one.

[Lark]

You need several hundred of them to get the fire started, don't you??

About four hundred and fifty-one.

At least if you're planning on burning books!

-Lark-

[Anonymous]

What ever happened to the degree system?

You need several hundred of them to get the fire started, don't you??

Ah, so that's why they need someone representing the element of fire then.

[Anonymous]

Baby girl, I feel your pain. It goes way beyond being Pagan. I too have tried to have children and it has not worked. My husband and I have been married for over 2 years and started trying on our honeymoon. It hurts way down deep inside, something no one can explain. I wish you well and remember someone is out here that knows how you feel.
Blessed be,
Leigh

[Shadow]

You know, it may not help, but, new studies are showing that acupuncture (whether in conjunction with conventional western medical practices or by itself) is actually quite effective with many forms of fertility problems.  

As far as misczrriages go, we've got a nine (soon to be ten) year old who the western doctors were convinced was going to be a miscarriage.  Our acupuncturist had other ideas and put Jennie on the right herbal formula as well as doing treatments with needles.  The kid is, and pretty much always has been, healthy as a horse.

Find an acupuncturist in your area who has experience in such matters and see if it helps.

[Beith]

I agree with the general feeling of the replies and feel it may be worth me mentioning my own experience - I felt an inner transformation from 'Maiden' to 'Mother' energy in myself over the past few years, roughly since my thirtieth birthday, although I don't have children.

I wouldn't say this process is by any means complete, but it feels very real.  In my line of work I spend a lot of time relating to and teaching young people and feel that my nuturing instincts are used a lot in that way, also it's to do with a general maturity as you go through life....

I have since been told by an older practitioner/shaman that this process is normal for male and female and that the intention to have children is a result rather than a cause of this process!

Hope this makes sense to you!  Please note that I feel no more justified posting in this forum than you do, being not at all a sage or wise elder, but I thought my views may be useful to you.

Brightest blessings to you x