What integral part of a ritual or spell would you simply not

[Lark]

I'm referring to the things that people cut out of magical rituals and spells because they are too far outside of their comfort zones, and what specific justifications (if they feel they need them) or reasons they have for doing so. After all, if you read 'ancient' texts, or even more modern works by the progenitors of various traditions, there are some squicky bits in even the most benign of them.

You hear of people who say they are Wiccan but don't practise magic, who are followers of Crowley but would never crucify a frog to create a familiar, or otherwise try to sanitize their paths. Scourging, sexual initiations, physical binding of a celebrant, bodily fluids, whatever people balk at while accepting or even teaching the rest of the rite.

So, at what point would you say "Hang the authenticity, I ain't doing that!"?

Other examples you've run across in research (or practice) welcome.

-Lark-

[TheBriarRose]

I could not sacrifice any living animals just for a ritual.  I, personally, would not bleed or tatoo or pierce or 'mutilate' myself or anyone else for a ritual.  Ingesting isn't a problem provided the item to be ingested is a food or drink item I'm accustomed to ingesting...personally I don't want to eat bugs or snakes or drink cat-hair tea or anything like that  

Because of my history of abuse, any form of 'turning over control' causes me undu stress and pain which are not worth any ritual.

I'm modest, so public sex or nudity isn't my 'thang' ....but sex can be a powerful ritual tool.  Although 'insertion'! can be a part of that, the 'inserted object' would have to be an item so designed for such a thing

And now that I've embarrassed myself

have a nice day.

[Sewa Yoleme]

This is an easy question for me, since I don't follow a path that someone else has laid out for me. I create the rituals I participate in, and they are drawn from a number of different traditions.

There are really a lot of things that I wouldn't do in a ritual or ceremony. I'm not crazy about nudity, though not on principle--I'm just comfortable enough with my body to be showing it off to others. I don't use patriarchal language. I don't kill animals for ceremonial or magical effect, though I certainly do eat them. I don't do curses or otherwise seek to harm another. I don't attempt to bind or control others (whether human, plant, animal, or spirit). I don't do rituals if I've had more than one glass of wine. I don't invoke or pray to gods or entities with whom I'm not in an ongoing relationship. And I don't do anything in ritual that doesn't either speak to me, or speak for me.

.:. Sewa Yoleme

[NachtSorcier]

I chose number two.  While I of course only work with those deities I have some sort of relationship with, I also wouldn't invoke deities that are just common sense.  For example, since I'm not Christian, I wouldn't invoke Jehovah or Jesus.

I did not choose sacrifice because in all fairness, I can't.  I do give offerings of plants and herbs in ritual and they are in fact living things.  I do not sacrifice animals, however.

Although I have not yet succeeded, I don't think I would have a problem with giving my own blood as sacrifice in ritual as long it was a safe amount.  A few years ago, I tried to give myself a small incision on my arm at a Beltane ritual, but my athame was not sharp enough.  It was an interesting exercise in pain toleration, however.

I don't think I would have a problem with being pierced as part of an initiation rite, but I would not be tatooed.  What if I decided to leave that tradition?  Piercings can be removed easily, tatoos cannot.

As long as I knew the people well, being bound and blindfolded wouldn't bother me in the least.

If I joined a coven that practiced a literal form of the Great Rite, first of all, it would have to be a gay men's coven, but other than that, as long as the members were mature about it and it was solely part of the ceremony and not just an excuse to get laid, and they practice safer sex, then no problem.  I am very comfortable with my body and secure in my sexuality, so I am not at all embarrassed to be seen nude or having sex.

Lastly, as for ingesting or inserting foreign objects, common sense would have to be made.  If these objects were made for ingestion or insertion, then fine.  I would not drink large amounts of poison (conversely by small amounts, I mean mugwort, yarrow, loebelia, those things that are poisonous, but safe in small amounts), nor would I put anything into any orifice that wasn't made for that.  As long as the objects in question are certain body parts and/or safe sex toys, then we're cool.  And, again, it would have to be a mature group; I wouldn't want to be reenacting that scene in the Lost Boys where the vampires had the main character drink blood.

--Christophe

[Zenon]

I would not say "never" because there could come to be instances in which there could be no way out of using them... be it a life or death question, or somethng else.

Being ritually bound, I've been in initiations where that was done, so I would not have a problem as long as I trust the people I am with.  Bleeding, that's ok I guess, I can bleed as long as the cutting stuff is hygienic.  Invocation or evocation, I think I am ok with that.  Unless I really don't believe in that deity at all... or I cannot get to acknowledge it (evoking Barney as a deity for example would be quite hard).

Really... it depends on what use you find to those.  I mean, I would not do any of those.  The insertion part, never!  Unless it's inserting food in my mouth.

I think anything that takes you out of your "comfort zone" will create emotions that expel a lot of powerful energy, and this can be very, very useful in drastic cases in which you need the most you can get.

Well that's all.

[Sebbi]

Although I don't practice pagan ritual I do follow the dramatic tradition and therefore a few of these don't seem too out of the question.

For example, doing an Artaudian piece it's not common but far from unknown for people to self-harm and/or bleed!

As for sex, then, again, it's been known to happen for the sake of theatre/film (Y Tu Mama Tambien, first scene anybody). Not to mention that with sex, it depends on the kind of ritual it is, if it's lots of people, then yes, I'd find that wierd but just the two of you, why the hell not?

The handing over control element I find very theraputic. Has anyone done blind-snake type exercises and things like that. The drama-games that I like best are the ones with your eyes closed, you have to let go and trust someone and I find that really positive. We did one game where we partnered up, felt our partners hand, closed our eyes and then got passed around the room and we had to say stop when we thought we found our original partners again. I loved that.

The person incidentally who was my partner for that excercise, I also had my first stage kiss with and it was so comfortable I only realised afterwards that she was my first (for stage that is)!

Going nude I have no problem with *coughs* Reading Music Festival *coughs*.

As for insertation, I wouldn't do that, but ingestion I would, depending on what it is.

The one I wouldn't do is kill something!

Much Love
Sebbi

[Fillionous]

I selected 'invoke or evoke particular deities'.

I think calling on Gods that you do not know and or do not belive in is a dangerous thing and something I could not do. I would prefure to achive my goal with Gods that know me, that I know a bit about (as much as any mortal knows anything about a God!). Basically find another more appropriate ritual.
In part this is my way of respecting the Divine, ie not making empty or hollow gestures to Gods.

I number of the others I would do (or have done) with no problems. But it always has to be with a mature consenting group / partner and sensible precautions taken... for example sterile cutting tools, condoms, appropriate items inserted into appropriate holes, someone sober, proper research on drugs etc.

As for sacrifice of something living... if we get beyond normal cooked foods/drinks and burning of herbs etc as not killing something (which of cause it does...) I do have a ritual that I use prior to and durring hunting. It is a wish for the right prey, to be swiftly found/killed and then thanks for the life given that I might eat. (The pot is the only reason I hunt... but I also try to use as much of the rest of the animal (bones, antler, skin etc.) as well.)
As for delibratly killing something in a/for a ritual... I would have to consider quite carefully... But I could see that it would be within my ability... it would have to be for food (so no crucified frogs and so forth), the death would have to be swift and humane (no long drawn out torture...) but...

Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

[Rowan CedarWolf]

Okay here it goes:
1. Bleed- why? What pupose could this serve that could not be obtained through other means?
2.Invoke or evoke a particular deity-depends, I was a member of a wiccan church that held public rituals, and we would choose deities based on who best fit the sabbat, somtimes it was a deity that I was not familiar with, but there was a good two months of planning involved per Sabbat and if a deity was chosen that I was not familiar with I made it a point to educate myself about them and do a contact ritual prior to the actual ritual.
3. Sacrifice a living thing- yes, meaning plants and herbs, If  you use incense then you are sacrificing a living thing, after allwhere does incense come from? Never an animal or human!
4. Give over control( binding or blidnfolding) - I have seen this used in initiations and if done properly with mature consenting adults I see nothing wrong with this if all are willing and comfortable with it. Of course it would have to be with those you know and trust, by the same token, why would you be joining a coven if you did not know, trust and feel comfortable with the members of said coven.
5. Have sex-Between consenting adults who already have an intimate relationship, why not? I would not have a problem doing sex magick with my husband at all, but to have sex with a HP just as part of initiation? Hell no! For a few reasons. I have seen many situations just go really bad, unfournately there are those who see their position in a coven as a power trip, and if you are in commited relationship, having consentual sex with someone besides your partner regardless of the reason is just WRONG, in my opinion. I respect my marriage vows and even though it was a civil ceremony it still said saving yourself for only ________.
6. Self mutilation- NO, why should you have to? Unfournately, in this day and age, there is still a lot of predjudice and if you had a tattoo that was pagan it could cause many issues with your job and other mundane issues. I personally have a tattoo on my back of Isis , but it was my idea, because I wanted it. No one should have the right to tell you if you want to be part of our religion you have to permently have this mark. Piercings and tattoos and anything permanent should be a personal decision and not a, "if you really want to be witch you would do ..."
7.ingesting or inserting foreign objects- If it is a new food that I havent' had before sure, if it is shoving a wand in my orifices hell no. To me this is barbaric.


Well, there you have it. THese are just my opinions, and how I feel about these things.

[Blayze]

Oh Lark,

I so wish you could have been at the Australian Wiccan Conference on the weekend. One of the discussion topics was "Unfashionable Magical Techniques: What Fills The Void"

Talk about thinking on the same wavelengths *grin*

Bright blessings
Blayze

[Anonymous]

I would not sacrifice any living creature.
I have used my own blood in a ritual, only a few drops and I'm fine with that as long as its my blood.
The only person I'd have sex with is Jon and seeing that he doesn't follow my beliefs (he respects them though) then that puts the sexual acts out.  
I wouldn't ingest anything except wine and cake that I use in my rituals.    Nor would I insert anything.
My rituals and generally solitary so handing over control to anyone else is not an option.
And with regards to invoking deities - then I do like to know who and what I am invoking, therefore I research carefully and / or stick with who I know.

[Anonymous]

Well, first of all, I don't believe that there is just one set way to do anything magically, so finding alternatives to certain practices, or excluding them altogether is always an option in my view.

Now to particulars.

Bleeding - I'd probably try to avoid it as I've had problems with self-harm in the past.

Invoking/evoking particular deities - I'm okay with invoking deities that I personally work with, as long as the invocation is as an invitation rather than an order.

Sacrificing of a living thing - I don't believe in killing things (not just animals) for no reason. Eating is justified in my view, but killing for a ritual falls into the category of needless killing.

Blindfolding and binding - I have Claustrophobia and take panic attacks, so this option wouldn't really suit me well.

Having sex - I believe that sex should be about the two people involved expressing love through mutual pleasure, and the idea of adding a functional element, such as spell work, to the procedings doesn't fit with this view.

Scarification or other forms of self-mutilation - As with the blood letting option, it probably wouldn't be a good idea for me to do this.

Ingesting or inserting foreign objects - I'm only comfortable with eating things that are defined as food. As for inserting objects, I have an aversion to discomfort.

I probably seem prudish compared to some of the other people on here, but the way I see it there are alternatives to these practices.

[Jennie]

Something no one else has addressed here is that most of these acts are in rituals in the first place, at least in part, precisely because they violate taboos, customs, or personal boundaries. They are used in magical acts because they do force you to step outside your comfort zone and therefore summon great strength of will and also generate a great deal of emotional energy. Given the proper context and a sufficiently important magical goal or reason, I would be willing to do most of the things on this list, with the exception of invoking or evoking a deity with whom I was not aligned. (Presuming upon a deity who is not fond of you is just asking for it, in my opinion. I'm not that arrogant.)

I wouldn't do any of these things lightly - but I don't work magic lightly. They would be an outward and visible sign of an internal will and commitment.

I would like to make a note about animal sacrifice. Virtually all animal sacrifice in traditional cultures is the ritual killing of an animal which is then consumed  - and I have no problem with making my food sacred, with being fully concious of the taking of life and then imbuing the meal with the power of a ritual, ingesting the power and incorporating it into my very body. Is it somehow better to kill an animal in a profane way and consume it mindlessly? I would draw the line here at the killing of an animal that was not a food animal, or an animal that had a relationship with me.

Bright blessings,
Jennie

[Fillionous]

Jennie, that expresses my thoughts so much better than I managed myself!
The right context and sufficiant need... yes!

But I can also understand others views where to seek alternatives or avoid things that would cause more than just 'transitory' issues such as those that are expressed by leotaur64 are just as valid.

I would certianly not choose any of these options as my first (or even second) port of call.

Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

PS these are some challanging and very interesting topics that Lark has braught up... I love it. Makes you think and consider, who you are, what your path is, and how it intwines with your life and practice. WOW it is good to be thoughtfull challanged!