God (Discussion topic)

[Gryphon]

At my workshops this weekend I was presented with my first heckler. She decided it was her duty to "correct" me at every opportunity when she considered what I was doing or saying "wrong". (This included the release of Circle during ritual. A release who's wording had been carefully discussed and decided upon before hand by several more experienced witches, and which this lady had been "too busy" to attend to help create the closing ritual! But that's another story entirely.)
 
I am proud to report that I handled her like any annoying, stinging creature and with about as much emotion.
 
During my first workshop, the woman took issue with my use of the word "It" to describe the Divine Presence. She didn't like that phrasing because it wasn't plural enough and "too close to the Christian concept of God." I tried to explain to her that she could use any wording she liked to describe what she thought of God and Goddess but she wasn't listening. And since the issue had nothing to do with the subject I was teaching, I decided to move on, or at least try.  
 
But her complaint, has sparked me to thinking. (I know, a dangerous occurrence in the best of circumstances, but there you have it.)
 
I choose to call my concept of the Creative Powers as a singular because in my world view all of the many manifestations of Deity are all part of a unified whole, of which we all are included. Much like a diamond has many facets, all of which are beautiful and complete on their own, but when viewed all together sparkle with breath-taking radiance. My problem is that I do not have a word that can describe both the Many and the One at the same time, so my words are inadequate to convey my feelings and beliefs of Deity in a concise phrase or noun.
 
Since the Pagan view of God/Goddess is multiple, and often as varied as the people doing the viewing, how can we communicate to each other our view of the Divine in such a way that will differentiate it from the "common" Christian-Judeo concept of an all-knowing, all powerful, overseeing Being?
 
Hey, I did tell you it was dangerous when I start thinking!!!

[Anonymous]

WOW! That lady should have not question your idea, if there is one thing i have learn it's that you can really do anything. I know a lot of people who do the same thing, and the gammer nuts go crazy. Which to me is what this person sounds like. Oh good job on keeping you cool.

Metopo

[Sewa Yoleme]

I choose to call my concept of the Creative Powers as a singular because in my world view all of the many manifestations of Deity are all part of a unified whole, of which we all are included. Much like a diamond has many facets, all of which are beautiful and complete on their own, but when viewed all together sparkle with breath-taking radiance. My problem is that I do not have a word that can describe both the Many and the One at the same time, so my words are inadequate to convey my feelings and beliefs of Deity in a concise phrase or noun.

Since the Pagan view of God/Goddess is multiple, and often as varied as the people doing the viewing, how can we communicate to each other our view of the Divine in such a way that will differentiate it from the "common" Christian-Judeo concept of an all-knowing, all powerful, overseeing Being?

Interesting question. I view the Great Mystery as being a unified whole---"the universe," but slightly more personal. I'm now comfortable calling that "God," even though I realize that my concept differs from the Judeo-Christian concept. In fact, when I say "God," I generally spell it GOD in my head, because it's far beyond any categories or articulation.

The Goddess, for me, is the natural world, "creation" (without the notion of a Creator) and the soul or spirit that infuses that creation and ties one thing to another. It's life, it's matter, it's the magnificent experience of being. It's sacred even at its most profane. It is God-with-us-and-in-us. It is in all things and it is all things.

"GOD" is transcendant, Goddess is immanent, but that's the only real duality I recognize. They are two sides of the same coin.

Now, within that broad articulation are countless emanations, manifestions of the Divine. I can easily understand why individuals and cultures call them gods and goddesses, though I experience them as aspects of that same Great Mystery.

Because I'm a shaman and not a witch or a Wiccan, I find I'm more of an animist than anything else, and don't have to worry about a strict masculine/feminine duality. I'm male, but I am certainly a masculine/feminine duality myself, and outside of the archetypes (Mars, Venus, and their ilk), I find very little that is not an admixture of gender, polarity, or duality.

But back to your question. How do we communicate our own experience of the Divine in language that is distinct from the language used by more traditional religions?

I'm not sure that's possible. I'm not entirely sure it's even desirable. This way, I can talk to Christians, Jews, Muslims, and nearly anyone else about God, and perhaps persuade them of the view that the GOD I experience does not exclude people because they're gay, or expect us to kill one another in his name, or especially want us to set up a religion-based government. I'd rather try to communicate my experience of the Goddess in terms that non-Pagans can understand, since they've experienced her, too---they just don't have a name for her.

Sometimes I think that all the names we give the Goddess and the gods reveal more about us than it does of Them. We may be created in the image of GOD, but our articulation of that mystery is most definitely created in our image.

.:. Sewa Yoleme

[Anonymous]

How do I start this .......   Its early morning and my brains not quite putting my thoughts into words yet so forgive me if this all comes out a bit jumbled but I think you'll get the idea.....

The God or Goddess concept in the Pagan religions / beliefs are, I think, purely personal.  How each individual defines each deity in their own mind is their own image. And the way each person refers to ech deity, is again personal.    But no matter how much you explain this to a group of people ..... you'll still probably come up against the odd 'heckler'.

On another note, the concept of God in various religions varies.  Christians view God differently to how Muslims view Allah, and the Catholic has the image of the Virgin Mary and Pagans all have their own concept of the Goddess and God.    How individuals are taught to perceive their particular image of God as children will stay in their minds and so the mere mention of God will quickly give them a mental picture of what they were taught, no matter how you refer to the Goddess or God in any religion.

[Anonymous]

My first thought was how the 'Creator' or the Gods and Goddesses would be amused at how we struggle with such simple things, me included.  :?

My second thought is that our mere and flawed language is not going to describe Them/Him/Her in one or two words. Would we want it to?

[mermdotcom]

My second thought is that our mere and flawed language is not going to describe Them/Him/Her in one or two words. Would we want it to?

That's an excellent point.  If we could sum up the Divine in a few words, would the Divine really be divine at all? And what would that say about Her? or Him? or Them?  And here we go with the pronouns again!  Wren, I believe you've given us even more food for thought to boggle the mind!

And as for the original question, my answer would be the same as Gryphon's, except much less eloquent!

[Sewa Yoleme]

That's an excellent point. If we could sum up the Divine in a few words, would the Divine really be divine at all? And what would that say about Her? or Him? or Them?

How about, "GOD is love"? Of course, the "is" is the same as an equal sign--so one could just as easily say "Love is GOD." You've experienced love? Then you've experienced the Divine in all its power and glory and terror and complexity and simplicity. Love is masculine, love is feminine, love is beyond gender, love is inclusive of all, the supreme unifying force. Sounds like a pretty good definition to me!

.:. Sewa Yoleme

[Anonymous]

Some people really need to see the big picture. You could try going with the term 'the divine'.

[Anonymous]

the soul or spirit that infuses that creation and ties one thing to another. It's life, it's matter, it's the magnificent experience of being. It's sacred even at its most profane. It is God-with-us-and-in-us. It is in all things and it is all things.

Sewa Yoleme expressed my view of Deity so beautifully.  I consider myself pantheistic, and as such I tend to prefer to use the term Spirit.  Mainly because this lacks the mono, or duotheistic connotations of God, or the Goddess and the God.  Although it may be strange, given my views, but I somethimes use Lord and Lady as an expression of Deity.  For me this is in honour of aspects of the universe that I feel to possess male, and female essence.  For example, the sea, for me is inextricably female; and a facet of Goddess elements of Spirit.

So... Spirit.  Yes, I'm happy with that, for the minute!

Blessings, Npf x

[Gryphon]

Some people really need to see the big picture. You could try going with the term 'the divine'.

I usually do. An d most folks go with it. The lady wasn't to be mollified. Oh well, her problem not mine!

[Anonymous]

Some people really need to see the big picture. You could try going with the term 'the divine'.

I usually do. An d most folks go with it. The lady wasn't to be mollified. Oh well, her problem not mine!

Yeah. My wise old Grandfather says, 'You can't give offence, you can only take it'.

[Zenon]

I agree with your definition of the Divine Presence of Creative Powers.  A book that is profound on this concept is The Kybalion, though it's more in line with hermetics than witchraft.

[Zenon]

Since the Pagan view of God/Goddess is multiple, and often as varied as the people doing the viewing, how can we communicate to each other our view of the Divine in such a way that will differentiate it from the "common" Christian-Judeo concept of an all-knowing, all powerful, overseeing Being?
 
Hey, I did tell you it was dangerous when I start thinking!!!

I think the pagan or magical view of the divine is very different from the judeo christian view because of one important concept:  Immanence.

For Pagans, everything is part of the divine.  The God, or Gods, are everywhere.  Many people inside and outside Paganism accept the hermetic maxim "as above, so below", which is commonly applied in this case.

For Judeochristian thought, the divine is separate, and we can only become one with it after death or through miraculous events.

[Sewa Yoleme]

For Judeochristian thought, the divine is separate, and we can only become one with it after death or through miraculous events.

I think that's a huge oversimplification. Both Judaism and Christianity see God as both transcendant AND immanent---the Almighty in heaven AND God-with-us. And that immanent presence is almost always described in feminine terms (the Ruach or Spirit/Breath, the Shekinah or Presence, the Bride, Wisdom, etc.).

In Judeo-Christian thought, the transcendant aspect of God is what/whom one prays to. The immanent aspect of God is what one experiences, and about whom words are utterly inadequate.

.:. Sewa Yoleme