Okay, here's a topic, what is it...

[Shadow]

...that makes someone an elder in the pagan community.

I have met people who, even though they were under the age of thirty-five, were wise and and shared that wisdom with those who were bright enough to seek them out.  I have also met many who were/are fifty or older who didn't have the common sense the gods have seen fit to grant to the average domestic turkey.  I have met people who would barely top the IQ scale at average who are incredibly wise in the ways of the world.  I have met people who are literally so far above that that they are off the scale who don't know enough to look both ways before crossing the street (in the army we usually called them 2nd lieutenants).  I have in many ways learned much more from some of the newbies right here on this board than I have ever been able to glean from some who have been practicing the Craft for two or more decades.  I have met those who are self taught solitaries who have learned the ways of the Craft so well they could open schools for new seekers.  I have met those who have risen to Third Degree in initiatory groups who haven't actually learned half of what they think they know.

So, what is it, in your opinion that makes someone an "elder" in the pagan world.

[RedRonin]

When they're called Elder by the population, they are one.

When they make a point of calling themself Elder, they're likely not.

Gotta drop a line from the Tao....

"Those that talk do not know.
Those that know do not talk."

[Brock]

I've been trying to come up with a useful definition of "elder" for years.  At this point, all I can say is that I know one when I see one.  Age can't be the sole criterion:  I know wise twenty-somethings and fifty-year-old fools.  Life experience and training have to figure in there somewhere too, but quantifying that seems to be impossible, basically because it has more to do with what people DO with their life experience and training than it has to do with how much of it that they have.

I do have to agree with Red on one thing, though:  someone who spends a lot of time talking about the fact that he or she is an "elder" probably isn't deserving of the title.

[Anonymous]

To me? I would answer in one word. Respect.

I know many older pagans, many very experienced pagans, they have run courses, public rituals, covens, moots worked with the media and interfaith groups.... but it doesn't stop most of them talking out of their backsides.

Whatever title someone wants to adopt, fine, but the few I consider 'elder' in the sense that I would be willing to go to them still in order to learn or for advice... that takes time and consistaant behaviour that builds my respect of them and their 'wisdom' (Or whatever lable you wish to place on it)

And yes, most of them haven't gone in for trumpeting that they where an elder.... they don't have to say it... they just ARE.

[Lark]

Good question Shadow.

Like Brock, I tend to think it is hard to come up with a firm definition of what an "Elder" is.  But like him, I know one when I see one.

It isn't simply a function of age, because I have met older Pagans who act like blithering idiots and haven't learned a thing in the entire course of their life.  But age is a part of being an Elder because I think that you have to have a certain amount of life experience before you could be considered an Elder.  There are plenty of smart young people out there, many of them wiser than some of the older folks.  But I wouldn't consider them an Elder because they still lack the life experience that goes with that title.

It certainly doesn't depend on how long someone has been in the Craft.  Just as age does not necessarily confer wisdom, neither does time in grade as a practitioner.  I now plenty of people who have been doing this as long as I have, or even longer, who haven't the veriest clue as to what they are doing.

It isn't necessarily about being smart.  It's more about being WISE.  And wisdom is not necessarily a reflection of IQ score or of whether you graduated from college or not.  Wisdom is something learned more from life experience and the school of hard knocks.  And not all get to that point no matter how smart they are.

It most assuredly has nothing to do with being famous or writing lots of books, or leading a coven, or being a Big Nose Pagan.  One of the wisest people I know was my first teacher in the Craft..and she wouldn't want to run a coven if you offered her a million dollars.  I also know a BNP who thinks that you shouldn't call yourself an Elder unless your name is known by thousands of people...a position I find slighly ridiculous.

And I don't think you can be an Elder if you live by yourself up on some mountaintop.  One of the things that makes an Elder to my mind is that they are willing to give back to the community.  They are always there to offer advice, a shoulder to cry on, or a boot in the butt when we're feeling sorry for ourselves...and they ask nothing in return because they are doing it out of respect and honor to their Gods.

Elders don't always make us feel good.  They make us look inside ourselves at things we don't want to look at.  They cash our reality checks when we lie to ourselves.  They make us into better people.

And Elders never forget that they are just human like the rest of us.  They know that they aren't perfect, but they are trying to become better themselves.  They have put themselves into the hands of the Gods and offered all that they are in that service.  And perhaps when we recognize that someone is an Elder it's because we see that reflection of divinity that hovers around them because of their very relationship with Deity.

Blessings,

-Lark-

[Anonymous]

Elders don't always make us feel good.  They make us look inside ourselves at things we don't want to look at.  They cash our reality checks when we lie to ourselves.  They make us into better people.

LOL that is SO true. One in particular seemed rather fond of giving me a swift kick in the derriere on a regular basis..... and aslo trying to force valerian root down my throat! Believe me, the taste of valerian isn't something that makes me feel good *g*

[Fillionous]

I have always been doubtful of those who claim grand titles or have long or pretentious names (esspecally those dotted with god names).

Those with wisdom (as others have said) usually are content with a simple name or are even happy with a 'normal' everyday given name, they make no great noise about thier experiance or time on the path or numbers of followers, they don't flaunt rank or grade, they feel no need to name drop or trumpet thier abilities (real or imagined).
They do have a quiet assurance, a depth of knowledge and life experiance, which they will freely share, but only if asked in the 'right' way or in real need. There is a peace, a contentment about them, they do not get angry through fear because they are confedent enough in themsleves not to feel challanged and defencive when presented with something new. They stick with it, are there and although are still discovering and traveling thier paths, do have a kind of real devotion and stability.

On the internet is it harder to find the real elders, it is so easy to be fake or be misinterpreted in a few lines of type.
So I look at the founders of sites, thier moderators, those who have posted wisely for a long time (not always do the three go togeather, but often where you find one you find traces at least of the others), those who show traits of knowledge, patience, fairness, wisdom... take with a pinch of salt and a dose of comman sense. There you will find, if not elders certianally, those you can respect.

Be bright, be bold

[Anonymous]

Age doesn't always bring wisdom. So age should not be a criteria, wisdom or the abilty to wisely direct people on their paths or to teach them some thing they didn't know. The ability to earn the respect of your community. And the humility to accept the respect of others modestly

[Anonymous]

I certainly agree with that.  It's extremely frustrating when people discount me automatically because of my age without even listening to find out whether I have anything to teach them.

However, the subject under question was what makes an elder, and I think age does come into that, although it is only part of it.  Age, wisdom, and respect all have something to do with it in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

The old beleive everything.
The middle - age suspect everything.
The young know everything.