A question about the Celtic Elements

[Anonymous]

Ok, since I've decided to find out more about Wicca, I've been doing a bit of reading.  I have a question which may have already been answered or discussed in this forum, so please feel free to point me in the direction of the correct thread.

My question is two-fold:

1. Does anyone use the three Celtic Elements (air/earth/water or sea) in their worship rather than the four traditional elements (air/fire/earth/water)?

2. If so, how does this affect the construction of your altar and your casting of a circle?

I know that this is probably a very simplistic and naive question, but any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous]

I always use all 4.    They correspond to the East, South, West and North points of the circle and the deities (for want of a better word) of each point/ element.   I would have thought that the circle would be a little unbalanced by just using 3, if only for the reason that there are 4, and every living thing needs all of them to survive. Plants need the heat of the sun, water for growth and nutrition, the earth to grow in and CO2 to breathe. We need all 4, and the weather is dictated by them.  Even minerals need them to some extent.     I've not ever cast a circle without all of them.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your comments. It was just that I was reading about the Celtic beliefs and from what I understand they just believed in the three elements of sky, land and sea.  Three and nine were particularly sacred numbers to the Celts, hence the celtic knot that has the three points.  But I take your point about the other elements.  I'm trying to find what works for me.

[Lark]

The Celtic cosmology is quite different from the way that Wiccans view the world..as you have seen.  And by the way, I think your question is a very interesting one and worth discussing.

Working with a different set of Elemental symbols would change the way that you set up your altar.  A Wiccan altar would contain symbols of the four Elements.  However, if you are going to work strictly within an insular Celtic framework, those symbols would not be appropriate and you would need to chose a different set.  Modern Druids, such as ADF, who work within an Irish Celtic framework, represent the Elements..and the Gateways..with the Cauldron/Well, the Fire, and the Tree.  Take a look at their website and see whether there are some things there that you could use in developing your own practice.  http://www.adf.org/core/

Casting the circle using three Elements would also be different.  Modern Druids manage this by not truly casting a circle in the way that Wiccans do.  But I have also found it is possible to cast a perfectly fine Wiccan circle using the Sacred Treasures and the great cities of Ireland.  Take a look at this circle cast.. http://www.tangledmoon.org/larkscirclecast1.htm
You could probably come up with something similar using Celtic imagery that would balance out the casting of a Wiccan circle.

And if you are working within a Celtic worldview, you may want to consider inviting both the ancestors and the land spirits when you cast a circle since these were very important to the Celtic belief system.

Hope this helps.

-Lark-

[Anonymous]

Thank you very much Lark. You've given me much food for thought!  I found your Celtic Circle Cast very interesting.  I've so much information to ponder now.  I need some quiet time to meditate on what I've found out.  I don't expect a flash of light, but I know that with more study and meditation on my part I will receive guidance from the deities to show me which way to proceed.  I feel that I am getting closer to my path.

Thanks
Ethereal

[Anonymous]

Four is actually also a number full of significance for the Celts, with particular relevance to the 'Cethrai' or Four Provinces (Hope I have the Gaelic spelling right) of Ireland: Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connaught.  As far as I recall, each of the Provinces is ruled by an element.

Traditionally there was also a 'Fifth Province', representing the Otherworld, and on historic maps, the counties of Meath, Louth and Westmeath are sometimes shown making up a fifth, royal province, based around the royal seat of Tara.

[Anonymous]

Ok, since I've decided to find out more about Wicca, I've been doing a bit of reading.  I have a question which may have already been answered or discussed in this forum, so please feel free to point me in the direction of the correct thread.

My question is two-fold:

1. Does anyone use the three Celtic Elements (air/earth/water or sea) in their worship rather than the four traditional elements (air/fire/earth/water)?

2. If so, how does this affect the construction of your altar and your casting of a circle?

I know that this is probably a very simplistic and naive question, but any comments would be greatly appreciated.

The Celtic elements as I have come to understand them are land, sky, and sea. Now within these three basic elements can be found the 9 dúile or elements, which each correspond to a part of the body, a quality of being, so on and so fourth.

As for casting the circle, the Celts, as well as their predecessors often would have their circles pre cast by constructing stone circles. They (the Celts) practiced the art of turning to the right to do good.

I've come to see the element of fire as an element as a more eastern philosophy, as to the Celts it was seen more as an individual spirit, a living being of sorts, not unlike a Sidhe mound I suppose...Hope this helps somewhat.

Senbecc

[Anonymous]

I am confused...

The celts, (i'm talking Irish here) Had their major Goddess Brighid, yes?
She was a goddess of Fire...
Why would they not have Fire as an element when their most loved goddess was a fire goddess?

Is this a stupid question? because i'm feeling very stupid at the moment...

[Rowan CedarWolf]

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: A question about the Celtic Elements

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"I am confused...

The celts, (i'm talking Irish here) Had their major Goddess Brighid, yes?
She was a goddess of Fire...
Why would they not have Fire as an element when their most loved goddess was a fire goddess?  "
 
If I am not mistaken (which is higlhly possible)Brighid was also a Goddess of wells and spings. So (If I am correct) in that aspect it makes perfect sense.

[Blayze]

Even though Brigid has a fire aspect in the sacred flame, she is also a goddess of water and wells. This combines with earth in her role as a goddess of smithcraft.

However, as Lark has already stated, the Celtic (and specifically Irish) cosmology is very different to (but can be complimentary to) Wiccan cosmology. Wiccan's tend to work with the Greek based elemental ideas of earth, air, fire and water. Originally the Greeks worked with six elements/ideas of earth, air, fire, water, love and discord. We don't tend to use Love and Discord very much any more, usually substituting Spirit as more than the sum of the 4 elements.

[Blayze]

Hey Lark,

I heartily agree.

For my own work with both Wicca and Celtic magic, when working with Irish deities I tend to dedicate my rituals to Earth, Sea and Sky. This threefold dedication is one of the layers of the ritual. It is the overall - macrocosm if you will of this physical world. I may then work with the treasures / weapons - each placed in a specific direction. The weapons have different purposes, some are for defence, some are for attack and some physical, some spiritual, some mental, others are combinations.  I use them to guard and protect my sacred space as well as acknowledging the layers of mystery, mythology and magic that each weapon brings to the ritual. There are different cities, heroes / deities etc associated with each treasure / weapon.

The elemental associations of those weapons are minor, just one part of their overall magical use.

Both the Celtic systems and the Wiccan systems are multilayered, they have different levels of meaning, worlds & mysteries. Most magical systems are like this. As you progress in your studies you begin to find the common threads and celebrate the differences.  You walk the paths between sabbats and moons in Wicca, between the trees and the various lands in some of the Celtic systems, between the sephira in Qabalistic practice etc.

I personally have no problem working with both Celtic magic and deities and practising Wicca. I know both systems well enough to avoid confusing myself. I will sometimes do a Celtic ritual, sometimes Wiccan. Occaisionally I will combine them.

At the moment I am running Oghamic Spiral rituals for our Wiccan group, they are part of several years worth of pathworkings. The pathworkings, though working with an Irish magical concept, are performed within Wiccan circles. However I am using a more Celtic style of forming sacred space for the Ogham Spiral rituals.

[Anonymous]

I am confused...

The celts, (i'm talking Irish here) Had their major Goddess Brighid, yes?
She was a goddess of Fire...
Why would they not have Fire as an element when their most loved goddess was a fire goddess?

Is this a stupid question? because i'm feeling very stupid at the moment...

Yes, that's right..However Brighid was also a goddess of inspiration. The "fire" that Brighid most readily represented was known as "fire in the head" which was the inspirational "fire" of the poets, or filidh.

And no, the only stupid question is the one that was never asked.

[Anonymous]

I am confused...

The celts, (i'm talking Irish here) Had their major Goddess Brighid, yes?
She was a goddess of Fire...
Why would they not have Fire as an element when their most loved goddess was a fire goddess?

Is this a stupid question? because i'm feeling very stupid at the moment...

Yes, that's right..However Brighid was also a goddess of inspiration. The "fire" that Brighid most readily represented was known as "fire in the head" which was the inspirational "fire" of the poets, or filidh.

And no, the only stupid question is the one that was never asked.

Thank you, Do you know that you have a very peaceful manner. Well, that is how you came across to me just then...

Thanks again...

Liv
xoxoxox

[Anonymous]

I am confused...

The celts, (i'm talking Irish here) Had their major Goddess Brighid, yes?
She was a goddess of Fire...
Why would they not have Fire as an element when their most loved goddess was a fire goddess?

Is this a stupid question? because i'm feeling very stupid at the moment...

Yes, that's right..However Brighid was also a goddess of inspiration. The "fire" that Brighid most readily represented was known as "fire in the head" which was the inspirational "fire" of the poets, or filidh.

And no, the only stupid question is the one that was never asked.

Thank you, Do you know that you have a very peaceful manner. Well, that is how you came across to me just then...

Thanks again...

Liv
xoxoxox

You are most welcome, and thankyou. I hope you find the information to be useful. I try to keep my Celtic practices as close to the old traditions as possible. I feel it is a calling of the ancestors to try to do my share to reconstruct and restore their ways, through law, skill, truth, and honor, and to try to pass on that knowledge to others who seek their own centers of spiritual being to achieve complete spiritual awareness. Which are some of the many virtues of the old Celtic ways.

Your welcome again, and thank you again.  

[Anonymous]

Shrek is correct in his statements about Brighid.  the Flame in celtic spirituality is the flame that is found within.  it has similar functions to the Fire Element (Wiccan Context) as it gives us the passions and the drive to create.  Fire is Fire regardless of the trad one follows but it is how one acknowledges it that makes the difference.

The Fire in the Head is divine inspiration, the flame of the hearth, warms and feeds us.  it gives us light and it is a symbol of transformation.  this is why Brighid is one of the more wide spread Goddesses in Celtic history because the Divine Flame is something that we ALL need to embrace.

i also agree wholeheartidly with Lark and Blayze as i too utilize Wiccan Practice and Celtic spirituality.  i generally call upon the Guardians of the the Four Cities and the relevant Treasure and doing this i has never once felt wrong.  

there, thats my 2 cents worth!

Mac Sionnach