DT: Dealing with our own predujices.

[Gryphon]

::Putting moderator hat on:: If on any level this thread comes near to bashing other religions it will be deleted without comment ::taking moderator hat off::
 
I admit it, I grew up in a house where other religions were not seen as being as good as my parents. My mother was rabid about me only dating or marrying "the right sort of people." I remember one particularly gruesome and extended conversation by long-distance phone in my late 20s where she tried (unsatisfactorily on her part) to get me to say that I would only marry a man who was "the right" religion. I told her I would choose a partner who had the same beliefs and ideals as I did but did not use the name of "the right" religion.
 
I never mentioned to my mother that I was Pagan. Given her rather blatant predujice against the in-laws of our family from other religions and her poor treatment and less than complimentary comments about the family members who stooped to marry outside of her faith, I thought my announcement would cause nothing but grief. I chose to "Be Silent" and not cause undo harm.
 
But it seems that I have, in spite of my best efforts, picked up some of my mother's predujice. I prefer my own "kind".  
 
I am more than uncomfortable at work. (I took a job about 18 months ago at a Christian family owned company. Their words not mine.) The people I work with are all Fundamentalist, Republican Christians. I feel like a lamb among wolves. These are good people, friendly and honorable. But they also have a world view that is the polar opposite of mine. They follow the Republican Rights' agenda with feovor, supporting politicians who I would never ever consider voting for. Even putting aside the religious differences, I have little in common with them.  
 
I go to work and do my job well. I turn down invitations to join them at worship and fellowship opportunities. I thank them for the literature they give me and throw it away when I leave. I change the subject when my children's book is brought up because I am afraid I will be canned without cause because of the book's contents. I can't wait to leave so I can breath easy once more.
 
Lately, I have been questioning my attitude toward those people who are following a different religious path than I am. I grumble and complain that I respect their right to follow a different way, why can't they respect mine. But am I really open and accepting of their path?
 
I overheard a conversation between my boss (he is one of his church's Elders) and a parishioner "...what are they so afraid of us (Christians) for anyway..." If the religion had been replaced with Wicca or Asatru, (ect) their conversation could have been taking place between some of us.
 
Now, I know I have always felt "other" and uncomfortable in churches, even before I knew about Pagan Paths. More recently, as I have been following my Path longer now, I have also felt this uncomfort in the houses of worship of my parents' religion.
 
I wonder if I am as open-minded as I claim to be or if I am being as bad as those people I complain against? Is this feeling of discomfort a prevalent thing among other Pagans? Am I participating in self-preservation by keeping my book's contents a secret, or am I doing my boss and co-workers a disservice by failing to allow them know the "real" me?
 
I wonder how much longer I will be able to lead this "double" life of an under-cover Pagan now that I am one of the BNPs as Lark teases me.
 
What are your views? How do you deal with your own discomfort, fear and intolerance of other's spiritual Paths?

[Shadow]

Let me first say that working with people of other faiths who keep their religion and politics to themselves is always easier than working with people who feel the need to broadcast their fundamentalist views, regardless of whether they are fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Wiccans or whatever.  Any such group tends to get into your personal space with their views whether you wish to be part of it or not.  Therefore, your discomfort at work is quite understandable.  I have found myself in a very similar situation at my place of employment.  Some of them even get a little freaky when they read the quote from the Dali Lama I have scrolling across my computer when the screen saver comes up, and it's one of his most generic observances, in fact, if I hadn't sited the source of the quote they might have mistaken it for a Christian inspirational saying.

As for you not feeling comfortable in the place of worship of your parents.  I think you feel uncomfortable because you understand the symbolism involved.  It's very similar with how I feel about taking part in Episcopal services when I was raised in that religion.  I turned more than a few heads and got quite a few dirty looks when I declined to take communion at my mother-in-law's funeral.  I, however, understand what I was declining and am quite comfortable with my decision.  I could quite easily have avoided the consternation of the friends and relatives by taking the view that it is just a little piece of stale bread and nothing more.  However, participating when you understand the whole thing would be either blasphemy or a lie depending on how you looked at it, and I was not willing to do either one.

So, I would suggest to you that you really examine your reasons for your discomfort and see if they stem from not wanting to participate out of respect because you understand that going through the motions when you no longer follow the faith would be a mockery.  You may find that you are being too hard on yourself.

[Anonymous]

wonder if I am as open-minded as I claim to be or if I am being as bad as those people I complain against? Is this feeling of discomfort a prevalent thing among other Pagans? Am I participating in self-preservation by keeping my book's contents a secret, or am I doing my boss and co-workers a disservice by failing to allow them know the "real" me?

Well for me I would have to say that I have the same problem. I have to either tell the god of the churchs understanding how long I am to be inside the church or I have to just stay outside. If I fail to tell the God how long I am to be in there. I start to feel ill. If that doesn't get me out of the church I have been shoved (yes shoved) outside. My sister starts to get really bad cramps and she's been known to get ill and throw up if she doesn't let the god know. A lot of the time I feel things watching me to make sure I stay in the Church no longer then I said I would. So your not the only one. I wouldn't think you are being closeminded i would have to agree with Shadow about the rest of it though you probably are just not wanting to participate out of respect because you understand that going through the motions when you no longer follow the faith would be a mockery. (sorry Shadow I stole your last few lines. It was just so well said )

[Gryphon]

As for you not feeling comfortable in the place of worship of your parents. I think you feel uncomfortable because you understand the symbolism involved. It's very similar with how I feel about taking part in Episcopal services when I was raised in that religion. I turned more than a few heads and got quite a few dirty looks when I declined to take communion at my mother-in-law's funeral. I, however, understand what I was declining and am quite comfortable with my decision. I could quite easily have avoided the consternation of the friends and relatives by taking the view that it is just a little piece of stale bread and nothing more. However, participating when you understand the whole thing would be either blasphemy or a lie depending on how you looked at it, and I was not willing to do either one.

The last time I was there was when I had found out my Grandmother had died. It was a horrendous family event as my grandfather didn't bother to tell anyone that hse had passed on for about a month. I had seen her shortly before her death possibly by only a few days. Any way, because I know the symbolism, and possibly was just as religious in that faith as I am in this one, I knew that if I didn't say the death rites for my grandmother, no one else would. So I called the congregation where I lived and explained the situation to the Rabbi. He was most gracious and agreed to say the rites for her that Sabbath. I went, I took my daughter and a friend who had asked what she could do to help so I had an adult to hold my hand through my grief while saying the proscribed words. The death prayers come at the end of the Sabbath ceremony, which usually lasts about 45 minutes. The names of the newly dead are called out and the congregation recites the words of the prayer with the passed ones' relatives, who stand for the recital. Even though no one knew me, and no one knew my grandmother, the prayes were said for her so she might go to her God. I did this out of respect and love for my grandmother. Maybe I was wrong and her soul wasn't waiting for the prayer, but I could not take a chance that she not be allowed to move across the veil because of a few words. I would say I was welcomed with open arms, I was not preached to or at or anything like that but I could not wait to get out of there because I did not belong there. We left before sharing in the bread and wine.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if I am as open-minded as I claim to be or if I am being as bad as those people I complain against?

Firstly, the fact that you even said that means you're more open-minded than they are!

I do get very annoyed by the sort of double-standards you describe, though.  The unfortunate truth is, the worst examples of any group are so often the noisiest ones, which is a large part of why these prejudices occur.  

I am very wary of publicising my beliefs, and I sometimes feel annoyed that I have to feel this way, while the room full of Christians around me can happily exchange notes on their favourite hymns, or whatever.  But the people I really blame for any prejudice I have encountered are the Pagans who strut round the town talking about hell-hounds and killing cats, quoting lines straight from The Craft and, most importantly, showing disrespect to any Christian they meet just to give themselves a feeling of power.  These are the people who reinforce the old prejudices and give other people the impression that Paganism is something to be scared of.

And, by the way, the few Christians I have discussed my beliefs with, including my best friend's family, random people I've met at work and social groups, and the JWs on my doorstep, only two (both teenagers, a very long time ago who knew some very dodgy "Pagans") have ever given me a bad reaction.  Most people are just curious and interested.

If you meet a group of strangers in a pub, would you ask, "What religion are you?" before deciding whether or not to join them?  Probably not, I'm guessing.  And if it's one of the first things they choose to tell you, then they may well be the type to be pushy about it.  On the other hand, if they didn't mention it, but did mention that they hold the same political views as you and read the same book last week, you'd probably get on fine with them regardless of their religion.  (Ok, I'm making assumptions here!)  

If this is the case, I don't think it really counts as prejudice.  It's perfectly natural to prefer the company of those you have something in common with.  I think the important thing is to remember that if someone is following a religion, it's because they believe it's the right thing for them, and that not everyone can be judged by the public examples of their religion.

[Lark]

I don't think this is a case of prejudice at all.

Prejudice would be saying that Christianity is wrong and that Christians are wrong or evil in all respects.  And I doubt that is what you are thinking at all.  It's not that their belief system, or the belief system of your Jewish family is an invalid spiritual path....it's just not right for you.  And there's nothing wrong with having a preference or a calling for one over the other.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be around others who share similar interests, spiritual pursuits, and a similar world-view.  It's only human nature to want to be around people we feel comfortable with where we can relax and enjoy ourselves without concern that we might somehow offend if we say the wrong word or talk about the wrong topic.  That being said, there are some Christians I know I'd feel perfectly comfortable with..and some Pagans with whom I would not.

It is a sad commentary on society that one has to be concerned as to whether their spiritual beliefs might be a cause for unpleasant consequences.  That is one of the reasons that I also don't discuss my religion with people for whom I think it might be disturbing.  The other side of that coin being that it is a very personal thing that others don't really have the need to know.

But I also understand my Christian neighbors who invite me to attend their church or who hand me tracts now and again.  They are simply following the tenets of their faith which calls on them to spread the "good news" to others.  So I am always polite in my refusals.  It is only when there is one who is really in your face about it that I truly get annoyed.

I do not often go into Christian churches, not unless I really must.  They are not my sacred space nor the home of my Gods.  In fact, my Gods are not welcome in that sanctuary.  If I must, as Brock's father died, then I do not participate in any of the sacraments such as communion.  But saying a prayer for someone you loved to the God of their faith is something I think we can all do in honor of their beliefs.

-Lark-

[Anonymous]

I, too have been giving this lots of thought lately, Gryphon.  

I was brought up in a rabidly Episcopalian household (if one can imagine such a thing), and my family continues with their beliefs for the most part.  Also, like you, when I started getting serious about my first husband, my Mother pulled out the religion card...in that case saying, "Isn't that a Jewish name?" :?   On the other hand she was constantly telling us that we are "all God's children".  Suffice to say I have a highly honed sense of hypocricy.

The good thing about my Mother's, as I see it, hypocricy, is that it has made me question and test my beliefs.  I am more comfortable with people with whom I can share my beliefs and I really loathe other's assumptions that I am Christian (mom, brother, a couple of acquantances).  What disturbs me even more are those individuals of any belief set that are actively intolerant.

I like to think that my dislike fo those things...hypocrisy, intolerance...will keep me honest.

Then there is the pack instinct.

I am aware, especially watching young humans   , of our human fear (or disdain) of "other".  I work really hard, as a parent, to try to root out unthinking responses in my children while teaching them, at the same time to honor their instincts.  Sometimes it is a razor's edge, and I always learn something about myself...not always complimentary.

Probably my greatest lesson recently came from a young man who is in our Sea Scout crew.  He is VERY Christian, wears a belt buckle in the shape of praying hands and a T-Shirt that says "Prayer is not a crime".  Frankly, my first response is to cringe.  However, this young man never proseletizes, and never critisizes anyone else's belief system, even though at times we have some pretty frank discussions going on between some of the kids because of their pagan paths.  When I told him how much I admire the fact he is so non-critical, he told me, "Yeah, when I was younger, I got teased pretty bad about my Mom being a Lesbian.  I got called gay-boy and shunned and it really hurt .  I can't judge or tease anyone, because I would never want to hurt them like that.  Who am I to judge their lives."

I have great hopes for this boy.

I suppose I cringe because of my past experiences...but my reaction bothers me.  I feel smaller because of it.

[Anonymous]

I've seen some very rabid intolerance for other faiths coming from Pagans.  Not from here, mind you, but it's extremely common in the community at large.

My parents raised me to be aware.  We've attended mosques, pagodas and various churches that were more than happy to have guests.  If you're concerned that you've developed an us vs. them attitude, I'd suggest that very thing, starting with places that run somewhat parallel to your beliefs.  In time, you may be able to attend service at a very conservative church (as I did once) and not feel bothered at all.  It was still a very nice service, just not the sort that suited my needs.

It shouldn't be until after you've attended one of your coworkers' churches that you decide how much of your private life you want to share.  You may have nothing to be afraid of.  Or maybe your concerns are legitimate.  You won't know until you understand them a bit better.

[Gryphon]

It shouldn't be until after you've attended one of your coworkers' churches that you decide how much of your private life you want to share.  You may have nothing to be afraid of.  Or maybe your concerns are legitimate.  You won't know until you understand them a bit better.

I have been to one of their churches. One coworker's mother passed over suddenly late last summer. I attended the memorial services and the viewing that is part of that.

During the service, they sang a lot of songs from a song book proclaiming the glory of Jesus. As is my habit, I chose to stand and not sing. Both a coworker on my left and my boss on my right handed me a book opened to the right place and pointed out the proper place to sing from.

My boss is a church elder and has frequent visits from the leaders of his church on church business. I know many of my beliefs are not welcome to these people, as I overhear them trashing such beliefs within my hearing. I choose the path of keeping silent.

One thing I have learned while working here is that there is a cultural difference that runs deeper than my understanding of The Divine. My views of life and death itself are alien to the understanding of the people I work with.
I felt (and still feel) that Goddess wants me to be among these people for a reason. I just don't understand what that reason is. I have been walking a Pagan path for going on 30 years. Every year along that way, my understanding of myself and my beliefs has deepened and been tested along the way. The last big time of questioning was with the birth of my daughter. I am again in a time of questioning. Perhaps the question this time is more outwardly focused than inward as before.

In any case the road is ahead of me and I will only find my answers by following it to the next crossing.

 

[Anonymous]

Gryphon, I think you are acting perfectly reasonably.  I believe (although I cannot prove) that I lost a job because of my Pagan faith.  I also grew up in a town that was very fundamentalistic (sp.? is that even a word?), and (i believe) quite capable of Salem-style witch hunts if the right person started rabble-rousing.  Perhaps you are keeping your faith hidden as a self-protection measure, but we have been hiding our faith for hundreds of years, and I see no reason to invite trouble by "coming out of the broom closet" to your employers if they have no "need-to-know".  Remember, the Lady may have plans for you in that place, but She will also let you know when it's time to execute them.

Good luck, and Blessed Be!
Danlan

[Anonymous]

I also grew up in a town that was very fundamentalistic (sp.? is that even a word?),

Fundamentalist will do just fine.  

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Rani!  I guess sometimes I just don't know when to quit!

[Anonymous]

Hmm...

I know what you're saying, Gryphon, but does this new lesson necessarily have to be outwardly focused?  If it were me in your shoes, I would think this sort of situation was an opportunity for me to really see that conservative Christians aren't monsters despite their rather unkind opinions.

I've personally never had any qualms about singing songs about Jesus.  I focus more on the generic spiritual themes and don't worry about names or fine details.  As a result, I've shared some very interesting spiritual bonds with people who would really take offense to my default religious ideas.  Is it dishonest?  Sort of.  But in that moment that we're being spiritual together, we're actually being deeply honest.

It's mostly a matter of personal taste, and I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you know you're comfortable, but it's highly educational.

[Anonymous]

Hi, everyone.  It's been a while since I've posted anything, but I'm always lurking.

Excellent discussion topic.  There's so much here I'm not sure where to begin.

It's my observation that those who are most vocally intolerant are those who, when it comes right down to it, are most insecure in themselves and their beliefs.  I've noticed in the Pagan community just as much as in any other faith community.  

That you can ask this question of yourself and voice it to others shows the depth of your faith and your willingness to keep questioning and growing.  I truly admire that.  By asking this question of the community you have given us all a gift.  I thank you for the growth opportunity.

When I first started down this path I was a bit uncomfortable going into churches.  I felt that the voice of doom would proclaim an infidel among the flock.  I knew enough about history to get myself into trouble, but hadn't gone quite far enough down my path to see that how I acted and reacted was all I could control.

To change one's perspective is a powerful thing.  

Instead of viewing the architecture and rituals from the pervasive "victim" viewpoint (Christianity stole rituals from my pagan ancestors...witch trials...Salem, blah, blah, blah), I took a really good look at those same rituals and saw the evolution of humanity.  To see the connectedness, to know where these rituals came from and why they are performed as they are is, to me, quite amusing.

I do not participate in certain rituals such as communion.  I do not want to be hypocritical, or more importantly I do not want to be disrespectful of where I am and who I am among.

I think that's where I'm going with this.  Try looking at this as an opportunity to examine your reactions.  Why are you reacting the way you are?  Is there anything you can do differently in those situations that will not be disrespectful of those around you, yet make you feel more comfortable?

To be comfortable in your own skin, to know who you are and why you are the way you are should be the goal.  

Bright blessings!
Schuylar