Am I being closed minded?

[Shadow]

If that salves your conscience I guess that will have to work for you.  Just do me a favor and don't do any spells or other workings for me or my friends/family.

I believe that when I do any kind of magical work I am responsible for the outcome.  I am manupulating the energy to fit my will.  "Trusting the gods to do what is best" to me is a cop out for poor planning on my part.

I agree wholeheartedly that we are not omnipresent and can't know everything, therefore I do a great deal of research and make damn sure I know everything in the specific instance I am working with.  Otherwise I don't do the working.  I can count the number of times I have actually woven a spell over the last ten years on the fingers of one hand.  I can't, however, count the number of times I have been asked to do spells.  I do, however, do shamanic work quite often.

As to your argument about doing a healing spell that kills, I don't buy it.  Healing is very specific work and all aspects can be seen if you know how to look.  As a shaman I find myself dealing with people's health issues all the time.  I have worked with everything from headaches and common flu to other sufferings such as debilitating pain, or chronic illnesses.  I also often find my self dealing with those who are at the cross roads.  I have helped many people, some strangers, some friends/family, to come to terms with their own passing.  However, I have always known which were which.  I trust the gods to tell me what to do.  I do not expect the gods to take the energy of my workings and bend it to their will, that IMNSHO is simply shoddy work, laziness, or both.

[Anonymous]

I must have hit a nerve. (only fair, eh, since some comments hit mine).

"If that salves your conscience I guess that will have to work for you."  It's not conscience *salving*. To do that would be to assume that what I do is flawed and needs repair. That is quite different from working from the position that action is needed, energy will be used, and *I* am not in a position to know all the variables, so I bring in the Big Guns, who do.

You speak of blame, it seems, rather than responsibility. Of course I take responsibility for what I do, any sane person will. Perhaps there's a disconnect in verbiage - in my lexicon, 'to work to the best for a sufferer' does not exclude death from the outcome while I'm seeing that in your lexicon, it does. That is what makes the permission-granting step of magic work so necessary before one even thinks of casting a circle - what does the person being healed want?

No matter how much research you (generic 'you', not specific) do, you cannot predict all outcomes of a given work. We do not yet have that ability. I trust the Gods to take work with me to create the best outcome for the petitioner - it sounds as though that's not something you'd be confortable doing. That's your perogative and I'd certainly not say it was 'more right' or 'more wrong' than anyone else's methods. It is just not a method that produces as much positive outcome in my work as the one I use does. And by my logic, that would mean that I'd do more harm adopting your method than sticking to what works for me.

I do not follow a Shamanistic path although one I love does. In what I've learned from him, he accepts that sometimes his Gods (totem, or that of another) have a different idea than he does about what is good. He is willing to accept their guidance and judgements. From that, I had gained the idea that was a normal part of Shamanistic behavior. Thank you for showing me that there are variations in definition.

(And as an aside, I don't do work for those who don't grant me permission to do so - who am I to impose my will unasked on others? So you and yours are quite safe from me.)

[Anonymous]

I believe that when I do any kind of magical work I am responsible for the outcome.  I am manupulating the energy to fit my will.  "Trusting the gods to do what is best" to me is a cop out for poor planning on my part.

Couldn't say it better if I tried.

As to your argument about doing a healing spell that kills, I don't buy it.  Healing is very specific work and all aspects can be seen if you know how to look.

Absolutely. Healing entails helping somebody recover from an illness not killing them! People normally ask you for help when they want to recover not when they want to die.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely. Healing entails helping somebody recover from an illness not killing them! People normally ask you for help when they want to recover not when they want to die.[/quote]


Normally? Yes. But as I get older, 'normal' includes horrendous months of agonizing hospitalisation to stave off the last stages of cancer or aids, for more and more of the people I know.

"Healing" is not confined to the body. I choose to help keep the soul healthy - and the body is only a short-term house for that. The Gods certainly don't eschew death when it is time. Neither will I. It takes strength to let someone go - and to help them stay. I'm not advocating killing as the only answer, which your response could be read to mean. But ignoring it as an option that is acceptable is to deny a major part of our Circle of Life. We will all die. "Life at All Costs" is not 'healing' in view. It is soul-rape.

[Gryphon]

Healing entails helping somebody recover from an illness not killing them! People normally ask you for help when they want to recover not when they want to die.

Healing doesn't only include recovery from illness. And just because you have not been asked to help someone die, doesn't mean that isn't a normal occurance.

The opposite of death is not life. The opposite of death is birth. Both birth and death are a normal part of life. Just because you can keep someone alive indefinately doesn't mean you are providing healing care. Some folks are better off ending their time here to continue on their Journey on other planes.

I have spent far too many years watching loved ones die slowly, in pain, without anything that can be called "quality of life" to believe that healing entails only the cessation of disease in the body. Several family members took YEARS to die from their various ailments. Not one of them asked for my help to prolong their suffering. All of them were ready to go. Healing in these cases was to help ease their way into their afterlives.

[TheBriarRose]

To tack on to what Gryphon just said....


When both my parents were dying from cancer, we all three had to accept that even though we prayed and asked for "healing" we had to realize that "healing" doesn't always mean getting well.  Healing can mean putting everything at rest before passing on.  

I desperately worked all the spells I could to help my father heal.  His healing, as well as mine, came in the form of peace at his passing.  

If healing energy was to prevent death, my father would be alive.  Did I just not work my spells hard enough?

[Shadow]

You and Gryphon are certainly right.  There comes a time when death is the next step, and the healer should be ready and willing to help the sufferer face and acept that.  I know this all too well.  I have helped many people find peace when their deaths were iminent.  It is, after all, part of the path that many shaman walk.  It is a big part of the reason we walk so readily between worlds. However, to get this discussion back on the original track, the statement I responded to  

Yup, if someone died after I'd worked for them to be out of pain, well, then - that was the best thing for them. Death is not, after all, a final act.

that caused all of this was that it should be left up to the gods whether or not "healing" energy brings about (as I read this statement) a quicker, less painful death.  My response was that if you can't tell when someone is actually dying or merely going through a rough time with a potentially life threatening illness then you have no real business working specific healings for that person.

I have a really good handle on when a person is dying and when the crisis can actually resolve and leave the person more productive time on this world.  If I just can't tell (a rare occurance) I simply burn some incense and send some generally good energy but don't do any specific healing work.  I've put enough people in their graves during my time on this planet ( all justified) that I am simply unwilling to do specific workings and leave the responsibility to someone else, even a god or goddess.  I am simply not made to pass on my personal responsibilities.  I already have enough faces I see staring at me in the middle of the night that I just don't want any more, especially if it were due to my ingnorance or negliglence.

[Anonymous]

Healing entails helping somebody recover from an illness not killing them! People normally ask you for help when they want to recover not when they want to die.

Healing doesn't only include recovery from illness. And just because you have not been asked to help someone die, doesn't mean that isn't a normal occurance.

The opposite of death is not life. The opposite of death is birth. Both birth and death are a normal part of life. Just because you can keep someone alive indefinately doesn't mean you are providing healing care. Some folks are better off ending their time here to continue on their Journey on other planes.

I have spent far too many years watching loved ones die slowly, in pain, without anything that can be called "quality of life" to believe that healing entails only the cessation of disease in the body. Several family members took YEARS to die from their various ailments. Not one of them asked for my help to prolong their suffering. All of them were ready to go. Healing in these cases was to help ease their way into their afterlives.

Easing somebody’s passing from this world is a necessary and noble thing to do.
Sometimes despite our best efforts people die. It is the natural way of things and there is nothing we can do about it. Perhaps I did not make very clear what I meant. I meant that if healing is still a possibility and the person has asked for help it is wrong to cast a spell that may result in their death.

[Anonymous]

"If I just can't tell (a rare occurance) I simply burn some incense and send some generally good energy but don't do any specific healing work. "

It sounds as though we've been talking at cross-purposes. What you have described is nearly the same as what I do in those instances, with the difference that I petition the Gods to direct my energy to where it will do the most good.

[Shadow]

Yes, it could be that we are simply dealing with a miscommunication here.  It is easy to misinterpret someone's words when all you have to go on is the written word without the visual cues that go along with face to face discussions.

I believe, after rereading this entire discussion, that we are both dealing pretty much the same way with our feelings when it comes to personal responsibility and we have just missed a bit of each other's meanings.  I'm willing to bet that you don't just hang energy out there to go where ever it likes.  I'm reasonably sure, after rereading what you have said so far, that your intent as pretty darned clear and you have thought things through before you do any rituals that will affect another.

My original staterments concerning this are mostly directed to those who approach witchcraft with an air-fairy attitude that says you can just cast spells willy-nilly any way you like and trust the gods to sort it all out.  We are seeing much more of this attitude spread across the net in recent years.  Much of this is do to printed materials by authors such as Silver Raven Wolf who tell our younger seekers that as long as they add the catch phrase "for the greater good of all concerned" or some such nonsense, they can do no real harm because the gods will intervene.

I believe that it is our job as older adherents to this way of life to help those new to the pagan path understand that while the gods do help and protect us that doesn't relieve us of personal responsibility when our magical workings go awry because we simply didn't do our homework.  The gods have a way of showing us just how small we are in the scheme of things when we aren't paying close enough attention to what we are doing.

[Anonymous]

as to the original poster:i don't believe you are being closed minded, she's a terrible author!!and you are not yet to walk away from responsibility over your childs spiritual life, not by a long shot.maybe sit her down and explain WHY you disapprove of these books and suggest some better ones, or talk to her about ethics and find out what her personal ethics are.

to all the "debaters", i want to say one thing.thank you.im only 19, a baby compared to most of you, and even though i've been on this path for 7years i'm always learning.watching you debate it out and argue your points teaches me to challenge my thinking, you present other views.admittedly im left a little confused right now as to what i think is right, but i'll work it out.you guys are the coven of teachers i've never had, so thank you for your differing views!!

[Anonymous]

I think its AWSOME you care so much about your childs learning! I would not go banning/burnning any of her books though. This was my mothers aproch and the result was me memorizing them! Any way I think a better plan is to show her the power ofyour own belives!(as you alredy seem to be doing) But in the end we must trust are childs judgment. Thats what I think anyway.

[Anonymous]

To answer the OP, I think she should ask her daughter why she wants to be a Witch, and what her goal is in becoming one. She needs to prioritize between Greater Magic and Lesser Magic.

All too much today, any hairbrained idea that comes down the pike must be respected and included in the name of tolerance.

[Anonymous]

I have found that the diversity found in a species has a direct corrolation to the servivabilty of that species. dose that make sense?