repost - Teen Witchcraft books and sexuality

[Jennie]

Trish,

In a now-vanished post about the reasons that you feel that teens should read books written specifically for them, you said that some material in adult Witchcraft books was "not suitable" for teens.

I assume that you were referring to material about the religious and magical aspects of sex. I think that we do teens a great disservice by trying to pretend that they are still little children. The teen years are when most people forge their identities as sexual beings. If discussions and information about sex and its relationship to magic and to spirituality are not appropriate at this time, when on Earth would they be?

Many people seek out a spiritual path in order to find a sense of meaning within a greater order, to find a framework that allows them to make sense of their current and past experiences and to guide them in their future choices. How will a spiritual path which ignores or glosses over sex provide a framework to help either adolescents or older teens make sense of their experiences or guide their future choices?

I believe that having a clear understanding that sex is both magically powerful and a sacred act is very helpful to teens and adults as they try to cope with the conflicting feelings, desires, and social pressures that every sexually mature or sexually maturing human must deal with to one degree or another on an ongoing basis.

Even if you look at witchcraft as a tool rather than as a religion or a spiritual path, I still think that it is a mistake to leave sex out of the picture. Magic doesn't work without energy behind it.  Passionate emotion is one of the most potent sources of magical energy. Sex and the feelings associated with sexuality are one of the most potent sources of passionate emotion. Many, many of the teens who have an interest in witchcraft are motivated in this interest for reasons relating to their sexuality. How many of them come to the forum looking for spells to change their appearance or gain the affection of someone they are attracted to ?

I would have to see some really compelling arguments to even consider going along with the idea that discussions of the magical, spiritual and religious dimensions of sex are "not suitable" for teens.

Bright blessings,
Jennie

[Anonymous]

Actually, I think those passages are more helpful to teens than anyone else. Sexuality is a very pressing issue for teens, and they constantly also search for a way to exress it.  But there are a lot of social issues and moral issues to deal with as well. Actually, having found paganism as a teen, it actually *helped* me deal with my own view of sex and what it meant to me.
Honestly, no one omits parts of the bible for sexual content (Song of Solomon) or bloodshed or anything that would be considered unsuitable for "children".

But I think thats the main argument here, isnt it? Teens shouldnt be treated any differently than adults if they want to make adult decisions. If they are expected to  act like adults, they will behave accordingly. If all anyone expects of them is childishness, than that's what they'll do.

We cant have it both ways. We either say: "Act like an adult and I will treat you like one" or "I will treat you like a child even if you act like an adult"

Mature behavior should be reinforced, not hand-holding childish behavior. What incentive are we giving teens to act like adults if we wont reinforce it? If we still talk down to them, they wont *want* to be mature. Its a matter of rewards and confidence in teens: that they are more than airheaded fashionistas. They have thoughts and want to make decisions for themselves. Sure they may need giudance...but can you honestly say that adults never do? Giving teens a specific genre might be a tactic to make them feel special. I mean, it;s a great marketing strategy.  But honestly it doesnt really help them at all.

Come to think of it, most of the stuff that is marketed towards teens is bought by pre-teens. Little 11 year olds will run out and buy Seventeen Magazine, but I cant think of ONE seventeen year old that read it.  But Seventeen still includes sex questions, even though their main audience hasnt even hit puberty yet. No actualy Teenager will usually buy that "Especially for Teen" stuff, because they have matured past that and see through it. So, in actuality, all that stuff is going to the less-than-teen crowd because teenagers wont go near it!

That should be a wake-up call as to how effective teen marketed stuff is.  

I've said it before, and I will say it again: If they are mature enough to make a spiritual decision for themselves, than they're mature enough to read the same books as everyone else.

[Anonymous]

the author dealt with sexual issues and when she did so she made sure to mention that what she talked about pertained to consenting adults. I guess that also covers any legal problems that she might have because of it in the future.

Rain

[branwen]

If they are mature enough to make a spiritual decision for themselves, than they're mature enough to read the same books as everyone else.

But that may be the point.  Not all teens are mature enough to make such decisions without guidance.  To be sure, some don't need it.  However, any book that is published has a target readership.  If it's the preteen that needs to read the book, fine.  If it's a less mature 17 year old, that's okay too.  Few books are intended for everyone in a particular group.

It seems like most authors target beginners in any case, regardless of age.  If I pick up a new book on witchcraft, I first look in the preface or introduction to see what tradition the author follows.  Then, I look at the table of contents.  If there are whole chapters on tools, casting circles, each of the Sabbats, and so on, I don't need the book.  It's for beginners.  It's much harder to find books written for more advanced practitioners, though there are a few.  But I digress...

Some teens, not all, are more comfortable with things that are intended for their age group.  They'll all grow out of it very quickly.  If they are truly beginners, they may need to have the most basic things defined for them.  For example, what is a spiritual path?  Remember, most were brought up within organized religions and have little idea about how to create and define their own sense of spirituality.  It is quite possible that these teens need the kind of help that might be offered in a  good teen-oriented book.

Some of you may think I've done a complete 180 on this subject, but not really.  As long as the only teen witchcraft books available were those written by authors of questionable knowledge and intention, then I was dead set against them.  However, if a knowledgeable and thoughtful person writes such a book, dismissing it out of hand is a little like sticking your head in the sand.  I haven't read Trish's book so I don't know whether it contains any information on sexuality or any other specific subject.  I'd make bets that she suggests further reading, both in pagan and non-pagan literature.

If I find that I like her book and would consider it useful to teens, then I'll certainly recommend it.  However, that book or any other one book would never be the extent of my recommendations.  Pagans have to be scholars.  We have little choice since we have no organzation to provide information for teaching or for textbooks.  We have to discover the mysteries for ourselves, and they won't be found in one place.

[WildJoker]

I think perhaps a reputable author would write a book directed to a certain age group  simply to use language that would perhaps be better understood by that group.  

I see this as being no different then say a book that was written to introduce Pagan, Wiccan, Withcraft, ect concepts to say a christian. Certain phrases could be used to trigger a recognition of something that is part of what they belive in.  I know that my father who is a retired minister has read books comparing many different religions to his own.  Granted he has always gone on to read the actually text the religion is derived from but then he has a thirst for knowledge of any kind.

I can see the need for books geared to all different levels and age groups on any subject.  I think it comes down to the author and there motivation for writing the book.

[Anonymous]

I honestly feel that Witchcraft, Wiccan, Paganism, Shaman, (*whatever personal following you want to put in the space!*) books that are geared towards "teens" in their  title is like aiming a book for any of the following "the elderly, the middle aged, the infant, the toddler, the baby." It is categorical, presumptious and infers specific characteristics of an age group for no bloody reason at all.

Agreeably, the use of terms such as "advanced" and "beginner" is helpful because we know which stages of learning we have reached and use it to access our own information to progress on a personal level. What actually exists in the teenage world that requires a *knowing* author to document them? Nothing. When a person in their teenage years discovers religion, sex, drugs, loneliness, careers, poverty - it may be a first experience but that is never exclusive to being 13-19.

My advice is if you're up to following any religion, belief or rede with commitment - sod your age - we dont judge, but make damn sure that you read. I read books in my family from age 6  and i have used it practically, spiritually, mentally, sexually. If you feel ready to access books - do it. Do not feel generalised by authors trying to make a coin because you're at a "so-called impressionable age"

However, if you are struggling with books, drop a comprehensive level and enjoy!!

[Jennie]

...you will see that what I am taking issue with is the idea that sex is a subject that is somehow "not suitable" for teenagers.

I have never argued that authors should not write to their audiences. Clearly, beginners of any age need different books than advanced practitioners. I *am* arguing that sexuality should not be a taboo topic when writing for people who are in the process of developing their identities as sexual beings. I think that this is especially true for books dealing with Witchcraft, since sex and sexuality have important roles both in the practice of magic and in the religious symbolism and mythology of Wicca and many other pagan religions.

I think that the idea that sex should not be discussed in books for teens is not one that springs naturally from the traditions of Witchcraft. I think it is very likely that it springs either from the influence of the dominant sexually repressive Christian paradigm that holds sway in the US, or from the minds of marketing folks who, even if they don't subscribe to this paradigm, want to ensure that no parent anywhere could possibly object to anything that appears between the covers of a book marketed to the teen crowd.

I think that this attitude does both teens and Witchcraft a great disservice. It withholds useful and relevant concepts and information from a group in need of it, and it runs the risk of distorting the nature and foundations of Witchcraft.

Bright blessings,
Jennie

[Anonymous]

as the parent of a 17 year old male I made my comment as a mother and a writer. I'm not sure as a parent I like the idea of some author I don't know lecturing my son about sexuality or sacred sexuality, for that matter. Part of the problem in today's society is that there are too many hands in the pot sometimes -- topics like religion and sex used to be something for families to handle together, not every tom, dick, and tina (LOL).

do I think of teens as kids? No. Do I think everyone who reads a magickal book of any age will be responsible - nope! Any time you talk about sex or power it's inevitable that all the WRONG people will be attracted to the book -- that's human nature, and I try to write with human nature in mind (i.e. going back a few steps and building in the hopes of providing strong foundations).

Returning to teens specifically I do try to support the idea that their bodies are sacred and that they need to think about their choices, not simply leap due to pressures or momentary urges. I have tried very hard to keep my tone as if I was talking to a nearly adult - no "there there dearie" type attitudes. But most importantly I've tried to undo some of the huge boo-boos and bad feelings that I feel came out of other Teen efforts. If I succeed has yet to be determined (crossing fingers)

[Shadow]

First, thank you Jennie for using the large font.  It really makes it easier on these old eyes.

Second, let me say that I am not dismissing Trish's book out of hand.  When it comes out I will look it over.  I will not, however, spend my limited resources to buy it because I don't feel the need for such a book in my library.  If Trish, or any other author for that matter, wishes me to read her book thoroughly for the purposes of critiquing it she is certainly welcome to send me a copy.  You can get my mailing address by simply PMing me and asking for it.  Include a prepaid return envelope and I will return the book when I am finished reading it if that is desired.

I have seen the arguments about why people feel that "Teen" books are needed.  I just don't buy it.

Yes, teens are making career choices in an uncertain world.  So is the fifty+ year old steel mill worker who has been layed off and needs retraining.  Or the homemaker who has decided to enter the workforce now that her kids are settled into school, and her family needs the extra income.

Many such people, whether they are fishermen in Maine, or Loggers in Oregon, or steel workers in Pennsylvania, worked these jobs during the summers while in high school and fully expected to work those jobs until retirement (not without a good reason to expect such since their fathers and grandfathers did just that).  The world is changing more rapidly than most people can keep up with, and we all have to deal with those changes whether we are fifteen or fifty.

As far as dealing with how to tell family members, that isn't just a teen issue either.  We just had a woman on  the old board who has been married for thirty years who is having trouble with her husband because he can't seem to accept her choice to become a pagan.  We also had a college student who told her family and her family of strict Catholics has stopped speaking to her.  This is not just a teen issue, both of these people came to us looking for advice on dealing with it and neither of them is an adolescent.

As for ethics.  We just had two young women, both adults, come to us with ethical questions.

One was new to witchcraft and had the mistaken belief that spells were the first recourse of a witch and was casting spells when she should have been burning up the phone lines instead of candles.  The other wanted guidance (read permission here) to cast a spell on her boss because he chewed her out for what could have been a costly mistake if he hadn't caught it.  She never even really considered that it was her fault and that she needed to take responsibility for her own actions.

As for the sexuality aspect, I can tell you that many adults may think that it is a subject that teens are too immature for but I can tell you that it is very much a part of their lives.  Whether they are actually sexually active or just subject to the peer pressure that we all remember, they think about sex a lot.  One thing they are looking for is real guidance not someone to gloss over the subject.

What most of them have had in there lives is a weird combination of "fairy tale, happily ever after" and back alley lessons that have left them totally confused and unready to even begin to enter the adult world where they will most likely begin to get involved in relationships.  What they need here is responsible guidance that lets them know that it is okay not to engage in sexual activities before they are ready to handle the emotional stress that goes with it.  They also need responsible guidance in what a real relationship is about and how to participate in one.  These are definitely things that a spiritual path should help them with and glossing over that is doing them a disservice.

Like I said, I won't dismiss Trish's book out hand, but I won't give it blanket endorsement without having seen it either.

[Anonymous]

note my replies in caps

I will not, however, spend my limited resources to buy it because I don't feel the need for such a book in my library.

I DIDN'T EXPECT YOU TO. YOU ARE NOT WHOM THE BOOK IS WRITTEN FOR (NO OFFENSE)

Yes, teens are making career choices in an uncertain world. So is the fifty+ year old steel mill worker who has been layed off and needs retraining. Or the homemaker who has decided to enter the workforce now that her kids are settled into school, and her family needs the extra income.

YEP AND IF POSSIBLE I WOULD LOVE TO SEE BOOKS FOR EACH ONE OF THOSE DEMOGRAPHICS - SOMETHING TO WHICH THOSE PEOPLE CAN TRULY RELATE RATHER THAN ONLY GETTING 1/2 OF IT (IF THAT MUCH). THIS IS ABOUT QUALITY LEARNING -- AND ABOUT REACHING PEOPLE WHERE THEY LIVE. I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT AND HOPE TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE

The world is changing more rapidly than most people can keep up with, and we all have to deal with those changes whether we are fifteen or fifty.

YES BUT WHAT AFFECTS US ON A PERSONAL LEVEL IS DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT AT 50 -- I'M PRETTY SURE MOST 15 YEAR OLDS AREN'T THINKING MUCH OF WORKING TILL THEY'RE 90 BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO RETIREMENT PLAN

As far as dealing with how to tell family members, that isn't just a teen issue either.

OF COURSE NOT, BUT IT'S HARDER FOR A YOUNG ADULT BECAUSE MANY ADULTS DON'T LISTEN TO THEM SERIOUSLY, OR BECAUSE OF PARENTAL CONCERN NIX THE IDEA OUTRIGHT. ADULTS TYPICALLY MAY HAVE TO CUT OFF A RELATION OR FRIEND, BUT DON'T GET TOLD YOU'RE NOT OLD ENOUGH LOL

As for ethics. We just had two young women, both adults, come to us with ethical questions.

CONGRATS - YOU'RE LUCKY AND DOING SOMETHING RIGHT

One thing they are looking for is real guidance not someone to gloss over the subject.

AND YOU TRUST ME OR ANOTHER UNKNOWN AUTHOR TO DO THAT? MAN, I HOPE NOT.

These are definitely things that a spiritual path should help them with and glossing over that is doing them a disservice.

NO GLOSSING - JUST ENCOURAGING PARENT PARTICIPATION AND SOUND EDUCATION, NOT JUST WHAT A SPIRITUAL BOOK CAN OFFER

Like I said, I won't dismiss Trish's book out hand, but I won't give it blanket endorsement without having seen it either

I WOULD NOT WANT THAT - AND I TAKE EXCEPTION AT THE COMMENT WITH ALL DUE RESPECT. I'VE WORKED VERY HARD IN THIS COMMUNITY TO EARN ANY CUDOS I GET -- I HAVEN'T HAD A 'GIMMIE" IN MY ENTIRE LIFE BEFORE OR AFTER BEING AN AUTHOR. PRIOR TO THIS ASPECT OF MY LIFE I WORKED 14 YEARS AS AN AA FULL TIME, I'VE RAISED THREE CHILDREN AND A HUSBAND, I WORK PART TIME OUTSIDE THE HOME, WRITE, TRAVEL 26 TIMES A YEAR AND TRY TO FIND A MOMENT TO SLEEP AND PARTICIPATE IN FORUMS LIKE THIS. SO, IF YOU EVER THOUGHT I WANTED A CARTE BLANCH - CONSIDER THIS A PUBLIC DECLARATION ... I ONLY WANT PEOPLE TO BE HONEST ABOUT ANYTHING I WRITE OR DO. WANTING ANYTHING ELSE BREAKS MY PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO HONOR, RESPECT, AND GRATITUDE. MINE IS BUT TO SERVE.

TRISH

[Anonymous]

sorry if I seemed to go off on a rant (I couldn't get the bold lettering to work right so I used caps). I have been very frustrated lately by people who have no idea what a writer's life in this community is like ... Now, you may or may not know that -- but I can tell you it's not all hearts and flowers LOL. I'm at a juncture where I've been seriously re-considering how I serve this community (the why's are sound). When I read a post like yours I tend to take it too personally, and for that I appologize. I don't think you meant it negatively in retrospect, but as precautionary.

Thanks for understanding we authors are people too LOL

[Anonymous]

I think it's hypocritical to deny the existance of sex to teens, like they did in the soviet union.

in my country, the average age for having sex is 16. It just so happens that legal age around here is 16.
I was 15, I know of people who had it when they were 13 already. There are a lot of those, you know.

In the Netherlands they give you sexual education at school mandatorily, whether your parents agree or not, in school at 13. It's part of the mandatory course of Biology, and if you fail biology and any other subject, you'll have to do the year over again! so it's taken very seriously.

thanks to this, the netherlands have one of the lowest rates of teen pregnancies in the western world. as well as less problems with sexually transmitted diseases.


ignoring sex isn't going to make young people stop having it.

[Anonymous]

Would that the US had a clue.

Our problem as authors or teachers is that people can SUE US LEGALLY if we teach their kids something of which they do not approve. I'm not willing to risk my family's welfare for some unknown underaged person who "claims" they have parental approval (I need proof to protect myself).

That is truly the crux of the argument -- ethically we are also bound to the laws of this land (and to working to improve them I would hope). But I'm not willing to come between a parent and a child. That bond is sacred to me, and I'd rather see a teen tuck wicca or magick in their hearts until they're of legal age than to break apart a family over spiritual persuits. IMO religion was meant to bring us together, NOT tear us apart. If a witch, neo-pagan, shaman, druid or whatever is truly what you are in your heart - it will be there when you turn 18. Until then, honor your family and nurture those relationships. You may not have tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

Trish,

:: Our problem as authors or teachers is that people can SUE US LEGALLY if we teach their kids something of which they do not approve. ::

If that is the case then how can you write a teen book at all?  A parent is more likely to sue you for teaching witchcraft than for teaching them that sex is sacred and should be treated as such.

[Jennie]

Trish,

It really is too bad that the level of personal responsibility in this country is so low that parents would *sue authors* rather than take responsibility for knowing and discussing what their own children were reading, or even for teaching them not to believe everything they read in a book, for that matter!

It must be very frustrating for you to have to write under such constraints. I know that writing is no breeze. In addition to staring at the page until drops of blood form on your forehead and fall onto the paper, you then have to balance your own vision of what and how you want to write with the demands of editors, publishers, audiences, legal departments, publicists, etc. ad nauseum!

I think everyone here appreciates the fact that you are doing an excellent job writing books for the community. I hope you aren't feeling picked on, because that certainly hasn't been the intent!

I was responding to your comments not because of the book you have coming out, which none of us here have even seen, but because this is an issue that I have been concerned about for a number of years. Shadow and I used to be part-owners in a Pagan and Witchcraft store and easily 60% of our sales were from books. We facilitated a Wicca 101 discussion group for a number of years in a college town. Most of the participants in that group were in the 18-22 year-old age group. We were the youth group leaders for the local Pagan community fellowship which we helped found, with a youth membership of between 8 and 20 teens at different times, all of whom were between the ages of 13 and 18. Some of the teens who participated in this group had parents who were Christians, but who respected their children's right to feel called to another faith and gave their express permission for their children to attend, after meeting with us at length.

What we found over the years was that both of these groups of young people were hungry for real, deep, meaty information about the path and about how it applied to the issues that were important to them. Without a doubt, they considered some of the most important of these issues to be sex, sexuality, and relationships. Ethics was also a strong concern. They wanted to find a way to know that they were making good moral choices.We found that they *might* buy the books that were marketed to teens, but they would almost invariably be disappointed in them. They got much more out of the same books that we would recommend to any adult starting on the path. Parents or friends who were relatively unfamiliar with Wicca and Witchcraft were much more likely to purchase the "teen" books, usually as gifts for teens who had expressed an interest in Wicca or Witchcraft.

Would I want my son, when he reached his teen years, learning everything he knew about sexuality, magic, and/or religion from some stranger? Absolutely not. What responsible parent would? But I know that I would certainly appreciate it if there were books by authors I respected where he could find views and information about these topics that echoed,reinforced, and elaborated on the values and concepts we, as Pagan parents, were teaching him. Sadly, there are very few of those out there, and the ones that do exist that I have encountered have not been the ones aimed at teens. Some of them haven't even been aimed at Pagans, LOL!

A book is not a substitute for a parent or a trusted elder, but a good book can go a long way toward making it possible to discuss difficult issues with one.

It is a shame that, from what you say, things like the threat of lawsuits will probably keep much serious discussion of these topics out of most books for a while longer.

Bright blessings,
Jennie