Witchcraft and Christianity

[branwen]

Sessy's post from a thread in the Welcome column:

branwen, and yet there's so many people in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, who believe in Jesus and Maria, who consider the Bible their book, wouldn't dream of marrying outside of the church or leaving the kids unchristianed, AND are witches. AND use magic to aid their needs. They call themselves, "vedma". Vedma, translated, means witch.

It works with christianity. And not even the Orthodox church is doing anything against it. It tells people at church, "if you were doing it, stop doing so now, because God is sending you suffering for a reason and you musn't fix it", but that's the official point of view of the church, and not everbody agrees with the official point of view of the church, in fact nearly everyone I know has a different idea about what's true and doesn't even listen to whatever it is the priest is saying (if they understand 16-17th century Russian at all)

it works with christianity, and people find stuff in the bible that is in confirmation with the practice of witchcraft.

The witches go about collecting herbs, reading spells over candles, or water, or in the morning mist or on a windy day, do rituals to foresee the future, and go to the church at the same time. And it's not a selected few either, I don't know a single family that doesn't either have a witch in them, or used the services of one for all sorts of purposes. How could that be if the two didn't work together?

The English witches who aren't christian don't own the word you know. They just have one of the countless traditions, and that doesn't mean that the witches from the other countries aren't witches. They're just the same witches. It's like if the Catholics would say, our sort of christianity was there first, so all the others don't have the right to call themselves christian.

[Anonymous]

I don't mean to fight about it by the way, I really don't want to insult anybody. I just don't think that certain people can just claim a widely used word like that for their own way of doing things...

As said, I really don't want to fight. That post sounds a bit agressive now that I re-read it, i'm sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone.

But you lot should post your opinions

[branwen]

What you are saying is true, Sessy.  The problem is that many people practice witchcraft as a religion and in that context it is not compatible with Christianity.

Look at what you are describing.  They "use magic to aid their needs."  They collect herbs, read spells over candles, ... do rituals to foresee the future.  I didn't say that the practice of magic is incompatible with Christianity.  What I do believe is that one cannot be a Christian and at the same time accept the beliefs of witchcraft.

There are certain beliefs in Christianity which are central to it and without which a person would not be considered a Christian.  For example:

1) Christians believe in one God who is the Father, though sometimes this concept is extended to the trinity in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  This God is the creator and master of the universe.
Followers of witchcraft believe that there are many gods and that no one god rules over all aspects of the universe.  Usually, the male and female deities of witchcraft are seen as aspects of nature. The gods are not omnipotant as the Christian God is believed to be.

2) One of the most universal tenets of Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the son of God and that he was given to us by the Father to die for our sins.
Followers of witchcraft do not believe that any individual who has lived on earth was more divine than any other.  We are all divine.  Witches also reject the idea that someone could die for our sins.  Each of us is responsible for our own actions and no one, deity or otherwise, can relieve us of that responsibility.  In addition, there is no sin in witchcraft, only the intent one has in taking an action.

3) Christians believe that the goal of this life is to prepare oneself for the next.  Thus, a good Christian may look forward to an eternal life in heaven, whereas others will face everlasting damnation in hell.
The religion of witchcraft has nothing similar to these ideas in its belief system.  For the most part, witches believe neither the Christian view nor the Wiccan view which emphasizes reincarnation.  There is a belief in the Otherworld where souls go before they are transformed and returned to the earth.  The soul may be returned in any form from animal to spirit.  Again, without the concept of sin, a belief in hell would be impossible or at least illogical.

I could list many other ideas that are central to Christianity and which are in conflict with ideas in witchcraft.  However, my point is that following any religion requires one to accept at least the basic foundation of that religion.  If one tries to accept any two religions at the same time, there are inevitable conflicts.  In the end, the person would diminish both religions, watering down the belief systems to try to fit them together, and ultimately not being true to either.

I am aware, however, that the word "witchcraft" is often used for magic or spellcraft.  Historically, that is to be expected.  The meanings of words changes over time.  Even religions change over time.  Because there are now a great many neo-pagans who accept witchcraft and its beliefs as a religion, it is helpful if we note the distinction between witchcraft as a religion and spellcraft when writing about it.  I probably didn't make that clear in the previous post.

The word "witch" is changing at an even faster rate.  Because Wicca is becoming so well-known and because many Wiccans regard themselves as witches, it is certainly worthwhile to consider how the term is used.  In the contemporary context, it seldom means simply a person who practrices magic, but rather brings in a whole set of beliefs that are unique to the pagan religions.

I don't doubt that there are also regional differences, and such issues are always open to discussion since they are never resolved.  However, one should at least be aware of the alternative views.  For me at least, the religion of witchcraft cannot fit into a Christian context, though people of any religion can practice magic or spellcraft.

[Anonymous]

Branwen, by no means do I want to discredit you, because you are very intelligent, and very educated.  I would, however, ask you to reconsider your wording.  It seems as you say "ALL" Christians when you list the 3 differences.  I would like to point out a few things from my Christian point of view.

1) Christians believe in one God who is the Father, though sometimes this concept is extended to the trinity in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This God is the creator and master of the universe.

Most christians would be a more appropriate saying.  I know Christians who pray "Father/Mother" God, or have stopped referring to God with a Gender.  Also, some Christians do not prefer to label God as male or female, and some don't even try to make God into one person, but into an Entity beyond definition.

2) One of the most universal tenets of Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the son of God and that he was given to us by the Father to die for our sins.

Again, one to Most.  There is still debate in  Christian sects whether Jesus actually was of Divine immaculate conception. There are christians who try to follow Christ because he had a message they believe in, not because of who his parents are, or to be free from some guilt imposed upon us by a *story* in the bible that was actually written by men.

3) Christians believe that the goal of this life is to prepare oneself for the next. Thus, a good Christian may look forward to an eternal life in heaven, whereas others will face everlasting damnation in hell.

Not all Christians are fundamentalists, who take the bible literally at face value.  There are those who realize the bible has been translated several times.  There are those who realize that the Bible as we know it was put together in the era of Constantine and they realize that Man chose what books were put in and what books were not.  Also, some Christians believe that Heaven and Hell are actually here on earth, using the more metaphoric interpretation, that when you are out of touch with your God, what you perceive it to be, then you are, in fact, in hell and when you are in communion with your whole heart, soul, and mind, then you are in Heaven.

I, by no means, want to start a debate about Christianity vs. Witchcraft, or any other topic.  If you are familiar with my posts, you know I despise debate because I do not feel I have to proove anything to anyone about my belief system.  I'm quite content to believe what I want, and let you believe what you want, as long as you are willing to grant the same courtesy. (And that doesn't mean I want to get into the "right to believe until it infringes on my rights debate, we covered that one quite well before this incarnation of the forum came into being)  I simply wanted to put my voice in for the other side.

Not all Christians are trying to burn witches/wiccans/pagans at the stake, just like not all Witches are gonna turn Christians into frogs.  There are misconceptions on both sides.  There are also bad apples on *both* sides.   My God is big enough to share, and I am not about to put limits on who can follow my god, or who it chooses to speak to.

I just ask that you be careful in generalizations when talking about spiritual paths other than your own

Please, have a nice day.  Conversation on.

[Anonymous]

Having been involved with Christianity in some form or other for over thirty years, I would say this:  
 
While there are indeed many differing beliefs and sects, the majority of Christians, as evidenced by their creeds and statements of faith, believe in one God revealed as three persons (Father, Son, and Spirit), the divinity of Christ, Jesus born to a Virgin, Jesus' death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the fallen nature of mankind, and the Bible as the inspired word of God.
 
No, not ALL Christians believe this, but the vast MAJORITY do so.  There are more blendings of religious belief now than at any other time in history, particularly in the United States, but I feel safe in saying that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are not comfortable at all with the notion of "Christian witches."
 
As for the Bible having been "translated many times," this is of course very true.  It is erroneous, however, to assume that this was a case of being translated from one language to another to another, etc.  Most of the versions of the Bible in use today are direct translations from the most ancient texts currently available, most of which are far closer to the originals, time-wise, than most of the other ancient writings we possess.

[Anonymous]

Christianity isn't just catholics and prothestants either...   There's (Greek, Russian, Armenian, Georgian) Orthodox, there's the Old Church, just to name two.

Even the part where God is creating mankind to look like him already suggests a bit of the devine is in all of us. And is there such a difference between karma, and the notion of your sins sticking to your soul and coming to haunt you and make your life miserable after your  bodily death?
There's the suggestion that at judgement day, the whole concept of sinner and saint is going to change and sinners are going to get a second chance. The Saints did wonderly, magical things, but what if they're just the exceptionally blessed, and the rest of us are blessed as well, just have to work on ourselves? Joan of Arc was by no means a witch, but she was burned as one, now she's made eh... not sure of the english word. Anyway, they'll probably see to make her a saint soon too. Matrona in Russia was at the time of her life pointed and laughed at, meanwhile she's a saint as well.


Seraphim Sarovski, one of the most revered saints in the Orthodox church currently, lived in the woods of the Taiga, and used to talk to bears. He's even usually depicted feeding a bear from his hand. The bears saw him as one of their own. Most animals in the taiga did.
Smells of witchcraft to me.  

[Anonymous]

If we're going to spout "years of experience" I, too, have "over thirty years" of experience with Christians in some form or another...that and a few bucks will get me a latte at Starbucks

Starman said:

As for the Bible having been "translated many times," this is of course very true. It is erroneous, however, to assume that this was a case of being translated from one language to another to another, etc. Most of the versions of the Bible in use today are direct translations from the most ancient texts currently available, most of which are far closer to the originals, time-wise, than most of the other ancient writings we possess.

No, they are just now finding the actual source documents.  Also, theologians who are studying the bible are finding that a lot of the books supposedly written by a specific person were actually written several years, sometimes even 2-3 generations after that person lived, which means it was probablly passed down by oral tradition.  The original text does not use the word Kingdom, or Lord.  Also, a lot of the wording was changed when it was translated.  A lot of the original meaning was lost too.  Theologians argue to this day just exactly was said or done back then, even going straight off the greek.

There are schools of thought that take the bible to its most literal translations.  There are schools of thought that take it in a more metaphorical sense.  I don't think anyone can say "A Majority of Christians" any more than you can say "A Majority of Wiccans" or "A Majority of Heathens"  and that was the only point I was trying to make.  I may be the only Christian who feels the way I do, but that doesn't make it any less valid than what you feel and believe, right?

Nowthen, can we get the focus off correcting me and back on what the theme was about...Christian  Witches?  My only, only only point to make was to say, Please don't  think or talk with "All or Nothing" terms when talking about Christians.  It is offensive to me.

[branwen]

I just want to add a couple of comments for clarification.  BriarRose, I was not suggesting that all Christians are fundamentalists.  Believe me, that would be a whole different can of worms.  However, I do think there are some fundamental (used in the ordinary sense) beliefs that are common to most, if not all, Christians.

I can't quite imagine telling someone, whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or whatever, that I am a Christian, and then saying I don't believe that Christ died for our sins.  There may be various ways of viewing his death and resurrection, but few Christians would deny it.  The resurrection was the foundation of the original Church, and I don't know of any Christian church or denomenation that does not accept Jesus as a savior.  That practitioners of witchcraft (of many traditions) do not accept this belief separates them in a way that would seem to be difficult to resolve.

The immaculate conception has little to do with whether one believes in Jesus as the son of God.  It is well known to biblical scholars that the virgin birth was added to the story when it was taken to peoples outside of Judea.  Holy men of many cultures are believed to be the result of immaculate conception, so the addition made the story more acceptable in those cultures.

I think Starman's summary of Christian beliefs with variations from one group to another is probably an accurate assessment of the tenets of the Christian church as a whole.  Variations are the reason there are so many churches and denomenations within broader categories, but the basic tenets remain.

My point was simply that I could not honestly claim to be a Christian, knowing that I do not accept these beliefs.  Similarly, a person professing to follow the religion of witchcraft could or should not claim that he does not hold the beliefs central to that religion.  This issues in religion are faith not truth.  The history and translations of the bible are certainly interesting issues, but I really intended to point to the most commonly held beliefs regardless of views about their veracity.

One of the problems in this discussion is that on one side we have the teachings of a church (any of them) as well as interpretations by various members of that church, whereas on the other, we have a mostly oral tradition and a great deal more lattitude in beliefs.  The vast majority of Christians are associated with one church or another, and would have accepted its tenets upon entering the church.  There are exceptions, of cousre, but they represent a small minority.  Yes, "most" would be a better term to use than "all," but at the same time, it is likely that few of the Christians in that majority would regard the others as Christians at all.

BriarRose, I love debate and find it a useful way of learning from others, not a way of proving something I already believe.  Debate should be what a good discussion forum is about.  My only concern about combining Christianity and witchcraft is that it would be difficult to be true to the beliefs of either.  Surely you agree that sin is an important concept in Christianity.  How do you reconcile this with a belief that sin doesn't exist?  (Just curious, if you don't want to answer, ignore it.)  I've searched Wiccan and witchcraft texts for any reference to sin and the only thing I could find is what I said before, that no act is in itself sinful but only that the intent may be harmful, irresponsible or otherwise ill-advised.  Taking the beliefs of each religon one by one and comparing them, it would be a difficult task to reconcile them to the point that one could accept both without creating conflicts in his own belief system.

[Anonymous]

Branwen, in Christianity there's still the nice option of going, confessing your sins, doing good deeds instead, and being forgiven for those. So basically, it ceases to be a sin, as soon as you realize that what you were doing was wrong, and try to make up for it. Whether you do it again or not is already the next question, and unimportant here.

So you can commit a thing that's bad, and it stays the sin it is, if you're either ignorant and do not know it's a sin, if you're unwilling to take up responsibility and confess what you did, or if you're unwilling to make up for it in one way or the other.

And I don't know the way it is in the Catholic or Prothestant church, but in the Orthodox church you can even make up being a whore all your life if you enter a monastary.


Oh and in Sergiev Possad there is a monk, Father Herman, who does banishings of negativity, first two days you don't notice anything, on the third, boy it works. For a few seconds, I felt like puking and choking at the same time, and after that, my legs and arms felt light, like it didn't cost any trouble at all to move, and so healthy and alive... whoa.
My point is, he's part of the church, and a really respected member of it too, and he's reading spells. Some of those are prayers, and some of those are psalms, and some of those I have no idea what they are, at any rate I had never heard those  before and they had an awful lot going in the direction of spells.

And he also said that one should always feed and never beat any animals, even street animals.
(though he had some strange ideas about dogs... ideas one's neighbours will not appreciate)

[Anonymous]

Surely you agree that sin is an important concept in Christianity. How do you reconcile this with a belief that sin doesn't exist?

I don't think I've said or given the impression that I don't think sin exists.  I think this is a matter of semantics, which in the past the word "symantics" has caused many challenges in communication here.  I truely believe Sin exists.  I don't believe I am guilty of the sins committed by anyone but me.  I don't believe I need to be cleansed of anyone's sin but mine.  

Sin is that that separates you from God. Sin leads to hell, because sin causes alienation, and depression, and eventually, you are in mental hell. Sin comes in when things are done with the motivation for personal gain with no regard for others.  That doesn't mean one has to be a doormat to avoid sinning.  That means we make a conscious effort to take responsibility for the choices we make.  To not sin means we uphold our local laws, and we follow 2 commandments:  The one about God being the only god (Who's to say there aren't more facets to God than we can count?) and to love your neighbor as yourself.  Again, no doormats here, because first you have to love yourself.  

Just because some man, who believed so wholeheartedly in what he was saying that he supposedly sweat blood, died in a horrific way to show how much he believed doesn't mean I am free to do what I want, then turn around, and cry out, see the preacher and be saved from sins.  

I think the phrase that is catching you up is "Jesus died for your sins".  Yes, that is a cry in a lot of denominations.  It has been used to control people by guilting them and making them feel less worthy than their leaders.

I really don't want to go more in depth with this, at the risk of being accused of prostheletizing.  It involves something called grace, and its another one of those abstract things like faith.  I'd have to describe my Jesus to you, which is a very personal thing, something I don't share with very many people at all.  Either you'd believe it, or you'd accuse me of being delusional.  I'll sum it up by saying I've had some very, deep personal experiences in the past year that have grounded me in what I believe.  It isn't for everyone, and I don't plan to teach it to anyone.  It is a gift for me.  I think you understand.

I think people are confusing the terms witchcraft and magic.  I also think somepeople have been calling what they do what they call it for years and years.  I think it's fine if Branwen doesn't see how someone can be a Christian and practice witchcraft, just like I can see how Sessy's great great grandmother or whoever was an Orthodox Christian and a witch.

I think, when its all said and done, and our bodies are dust in the ground, we'll see what its all about.  Until then, I'm gonna do the best with what I got.  I may not be the poster child for any belief system, but I think it comes to this.  If, at the end of the day, I can lay in bed, and go through my day, and see that I have been the best person I can be, to myself, to my children, to my neighbors, and to all I have affected one way or another, then I can sleep easy.  If I haven't, then it is my responsibility to make it right.

[Anonymous]

[I'll sum it up by saying I've had some very, deep personal experiences in the past year that have grounded me in what I believe.  It isn't for everyone, and I don't plan to teach it to anyone.  It is a gift for me.  I think you understand.

I do understand, I've had some interesting experiences in the past one-and-half year myself.  

(Oh, and actually both great-grandmothers from mother's side. Well, one of them was atheist, but that didn't stop her from sucking energy, giving energy, predicting the future, and doing more fancy stuff.)

[Anonymous]

If we're going to spout "years of experience" I, too, have "over thirty years" of experience with Christians in some form or another...that and a few bucks will get me a latte at Starbucks

I bow to your wisdom...please forgive my impudence.

[Anonymous]

no need to bow to anything or forgive anything in my point of view.  I'm a very informal person, honestly.  I took no offense, I hope you didn't either.  If it makes you feel better, than I'll say "I forgive you" but I think I'd rather just move on from it.  I'll even split that latte with you.

Have a good day.

[Anonymous]

Boy, never one to stop myself from jumping in and being foolish, I'll add my 2 cents worth of opinion.

BriarRose, first, it was a nickel for a cup of coffee  but that is simply splitting hairs...which is basically what this conversation is about!

I agree with Branwen in that it is a matter of defining your terms and thinking in the catagories of "witchcraft" and "spellcraft".  The term witchcraft has become so subverted in our western world that it can mean a great many things, i.e. the lady who lives down the street and makes herbal tinctures, the psychic who lives down the block, the very crabby female, the worshiper of satan, the follower of Wicca, the list goes on.

In Sessy's world, the literal translation of Vedma is Witch...but what is a witch?  Is it any person who practices spellcraft?  If so, then yes, there are Christian witches.  Christianity under the romans became about fitting into what was already in place as a way of gaining the population as loyal followers.  In Britain and Ireland it may have been Brigid and Beltaine becoming St. Brigid and Pentecost, in Russia...well, I don't know enough about that culture.

As far as Christianity...there is a very strong group within the Episcopal denomination that does concern itself with mysteries.  The mentor of my youth, Fr. Adams, was very involved with that aspect of his faith.  He also taught that much of the bible could be taken as allagorical, and was the first person who introduced me to the scholorly idea that the first five books, Genisis, Exodis, etc. were written by a woman, possibly Bathsheba, and were full of jokes and interesting references only a woman would have made.

Personally, I have no problem with Jesus.  To me he was like Buddha, a teacher.  So when the Bible says "I am the way, the truth and the light" I choose to hear "Here is a path I have followed, walk beside me".

The problem comes down to the Creeds of the Christian Church as it now exists.  I cannot say the words of either the Nicene or the Apostles Creed which maintain that Jesus is "the only begotton son of god, born of the virgin mary...who died for our sins".  Words are important.  In fact with a belief in prayer, they become a form of spellcraft.  

By the way, Sessy, I once made the mistake of pointing out that if Lucifer were truly sorry for his sins and truly repented in his heart, then by the Christian teaching he would be going to heaven.  It didn't go over well...and I did not mean to offend, it was just something I was thinking about at the time.

[Anonymous]

I hope this thread isn't too long-dead to reply to, but I wanted to add something to the idea that you can't be a Christian if you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins.

When I first started realizing that Christianity wasn't answering all my questions, I went to my minister and asked him, among other things, if he believed that Jesus' sacrifice (ie, dying on the cross) was necessary in order for us to go to heaven.  This 60+ year old man, leader of a large, conservative congregation, told me something like "No, it helps us to understand God's love for us, but it is not necessary for our salvation or in order to be close to God."

And the way I was raised, we were taught that sin is not something you *do* as much as it is a state of existence: we are not capable of acting out of perfect, divine love 100% of the time, because we are not perfect.  "Sinning" is the condition of not being perfect.

We were also taught that although we call God "Father" for the comfort factor, God is really genderless and incomprehensible.

I don't see how, as far as those things go, Christianity is incompatible with Witchcraft/Wicca/paganism.  Maybe that's why, although I consider myself more Wiccan than anything, I'm not sure I'd say an outright "no" if someone asked me if I were a Christian.